Lost, Stolen, or Strayed?

[Bilco]

I've just bought a WW1 trio to Serjeant E J Austin, Grenadier Guards, DCM winner

 

 

The medals are replacements - the Victory Medal has the tall suspension with a thin 'neck' between the barrel and the planchet - and the naming on the War Medal and Victory Medal includes the post-nominals D.C.M.

 

 

The War Medal naming is illustrated in The Collector and Researchers Guide to the Great War, vol 1, page 41.

 

I did a little research online, and found that the original medals - including the DCM - were sold by DNW in 2011   https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=225&lot_uid=201850

 

The DNW trio is not the medals I have - they show signs of assiduous polishing, and the Victory Medal suspension is the original form. They have been re-ribboned and court mounted.

 

So, I'm hoping that collective expertese can assist me in discovering the circumstances that led to the issue of these official replacement medals - were the originals lost, stolen or ?? Maybe a member here bought the DNW group and carried out research that might shed light on this mystery, or maybe someone knows of a medal theft that was reported. And was there a replacement DCM and, if so, where is it?

 

Any help will be most gratefully received.

 

Bill

Edited 24 September , 2020 by Bilco

[Bilco]

Apologies for the problem with the photo links - now sorted. This is the first time I've tried to include a photo in a post - I'll know better next time ...

 

Bill

[headgardener]

Usually the MIC's indicate whether medals were issued late or whether replacements were issued. In this instance the 2 MIC's (both for the DCM and the 14 star trio) only record the original postwar issue. It would be very unusual for replacement medals not to be recorded on the MIC's, but maybe someone can take a look at the rolls to see if that offers any further information.

 

It could be that the replacements were issued after the date on which the MIC's were transferred to the National Archives (the 1970s or 80s?), but in that instance I'd expect the naming on the BW&VM to look slightly different (something like '2/Grenadier Gds' instead of 'Gren. Gds.'). 

 

Can you confirm the exact details impressed on all 3 medals? Are there any letters (specifically an 'R' or the word 'Replacement') stamped anywhere on the rim or reverse of the medals? 

 

The medals look 'right' but it may be worth taking a couple more images of the naming just to make sure they haven't been 'skimmed' or something similar. 

 

EDIT: it may be a good idea to post his full name and other details in order to see if someone can confirm when he died. 

Edited 24 September , 2020 by headgardener

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I agree with you.

The medals in your first post are not the same medals as the ones in the link to the sale catalogue.

Your medals  seem to be in better condition than the catalogue items, which show a lot of wear  from polishing, or scratches than your set.

 

[headgardener]

8 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I agree with you.

The medals in your first post are not the same medals as the ones in the link to the sale catalogue.

Your medals  seem to be in better condition than the catalogue items, which show a lot of wear  from polishing, or scratches than your set.

 

 

Also, the naming is different. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Just now, headgardener said:

 

Also, the naming is different. 

Yes.

I was only commenting on what I could see in the photos.

[johnboy]

The centre dot in DCM is out of line with the other two.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Where did you get them Bilco?

[TEW]

Small pedantic point on MICs. TNA scanned the fronts as microfiches in 1985-86, MOD retained the originals. In March 2005 the MOD decided to destroy them. They were saved by the WFA in May 2005.

 

TNA scans can have dates up to 1986 stamped on the MIC. No idea if any later dates show up on Ancestry versions taken from the WFA collection, cited by Ancestry as 2008.

TEW

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Ancestry  MIC here:

MIC

[headgardener]

33 minutes ago, TEW said:

Small pedantic point on MICs. TNA scanned the fronts as microfiches in 1985-86, MOD retained the originals. In March 2005 the MOD decided to destroy them. They were saved by the WFA in May 2005.

 

TNA scans can have dates up to 1986 stamped on the MIC. No idea if any later dates show up on Ancestry versions taken from the WFA collection, cited by Ancestry as 2008.

TEW

 

Not pedantic at all, it would be interesting to know if the relatively few later issues / replacements do show up on Ancestry. I don't have a sub so can't check the link that Dai has just posted as I was typing this, but I doubt very much that the medals in the OP could date from later than the National Archives scans (1986?) on account of the way in which the unit details are impressed, and the absence of the word 'Replacement' (Bilco clearly knows something about medals so I suspect he'd have noticed it). I have a late issue trio from, I think, the 1950s or 60s and the style and manner of naming is already very different to that seen in the OP. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Images courtesy Ancestry:

 

Edited 24 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[headgardener]

22 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Images courtesy Ancestry:

 

 

So, exactly the same as TNA. I don't suppose there was anything on the reverse of the MIC? Or the medal roll itself? 

[TEW]

Think I've found an example of an MIC with the 'red stamp' dates of 1984 & 1987.

 

To add to this there is a forum post by a clerk of the time that may have stamped the card while working at the Army Record Office, Hayes. These followed enquires to that office.

 

Ancestry version has 2 stamps, 84 & 87. TheGenealogist version from TNA only seems to have the 1984 stamp.

 

The latter scan is a bit over exposed and the pencil LG refs. don't show on TNA. There is also another minor annotation only showing on Ancestry version.

 

Shows they were still being annotated after the microfisching and possibly up to 2005. Probably not relevant here but interesting.

TEW

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

15 minutes ago, headgardener said:

I don't suppose there was anything on the reverse of the MIC?

No, nothing on the backs of the MICs.

I don't have a sub for the rolls.

[Bilco]

Many thanks for all the replies and research.

 

On the naming, the 1914 Star - 14231 SGT. E.J. AUSTIN. GREN.GDS. British War Medal and Victory Medal -14231 SGT. E.J. AUSTIN. D.C.M. GREN.GDS.

The Victory medal is definitely a Replacement type, with the tall, necked, suspension. None of the medals has any other edge marking - I have examples of REPLACEMENT, DUPLICATE and just R .

The War Medal and Victory Medal are exactly the same diameter as the standard item, within 0.1mm, so I don't think they have been skimmed.

 

The War Medal is illustrated in Howard Williamson's book ‘The Collector and Researchers Guide to the Great War’, Volume 1, page 41. The question of the inclusion of the post-nominal D.C.M. and abbreviation for the Grenadier Guards is dealt with there.

 

The real mystery is why the replacements were issued, and when. They must have been in existance in 2002 - Howard's book was published on 1 Jan 2003 - and probably date from after 1985 when the cards went to TNA.

 

Bill

[headgardener]

29 minutes ago, Bilco said:

The Victory medal is definitely a Replacement type, with the tall, necked, suspension. 

 

Now you've got me really curious. Is there any indication as to when these came into use? 

 

29 minutes ago, Bilco said:

The War Medal is illustrated in Howard Williamson's book ‘The Collector and Researchers Guide to the Great War’, Volume 1, page 41. The question of the inclusion of the post-nominal D.C.M. and abbreviation for the Grenadier Guards is dealt with there.

 

Do you mean that your exact BWM is illustrated in this book? What does it say regarding the post-nominal DCM and 'GREN. GDS.'? 

 

If the replacement isn't listed on the MIC or medal roll (although we don't yet have confirmation of the medal rolls) then that would point towards them being issued in a very narrow window of between about 1987 (as per the Ancestry scan) and whenever the AMO stopped issuing WW1 campaign medals (about 1990 I think?). But that's assuming they are modern official replacements, which doesn't seem to make sense given the absence of the word 'Replacement'. 

Edited 24 September , 2020 by headgardener

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I'm no expert, but your Victory medal looks much much older than 1987.

In better condition than that in the sale catalogue, but still old in my opinion.

[Bilco]

The tall, necked suspension is the later type, but I don't have exact dates. The suspension is all of a piece with the planchet, so it's original, and it's too tall to be an altered original suspension.

 

In his book Howard says-

 

I have observed a number of later replacement issues and they display the following characteristics:

Impressed capitals 1.5mm high

Medium style of impression

Post nominal letters eg D.C.M. are often shown for gallantry medal winners

Details are differentiated by stops

Some abbreviations are not consistent with the normal style described in the abbreviations index in this book, eg GREN. GDS. instead of G.GDS.  SGT. not SJT.

 

It's the War Medal that's illustrated in the book, not the Victory Medal - having tried to photograph the naming the silver is much easier to get a clear image from.

 

Bill

 

 

Edited 26 September , 2020 by Bilco

[headgardener]

12 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I'm no expert, but your Victory medal looks much much older than 1987.

In better condition than that in the sale catalogue, but still old in my opinion.

 

Agreed. I'm assuming they must predate the use of 'R' or 'REPLACEMENT' to indicate a reissue. I think that occurred in the 60s or 70s.

 

EDIT: on 2nd thoughts, I think it was the 1970s or 80s.

Edited 24 September , 2020 by headgardener

[chaz]

regarding the backs of MIC's , it has been said before that some of the scans were only done of the front, the back being generic. Ive seen a couple where the colour and version is different of the backs to the fronts, I presume it was a quick option by a scanner as he/she probably found nothing on the back of the first few so didnt bother with the backs. the only sure fire check is with the WFA to have a look.

have you asked on the BMF?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

2 minutes ago, chaz said:

regarding the backs of MIC's , it has been said before that some of the scans were only done of the front, the back being generic. Ive seen a couple where the colour and version is different of the backs to the fronts, I presume it was a quick option by a scanner as he/she probably found nothing on the back of the first few so didnt bother with the backs. the only sure fire check is with the WFA to have a look.

That's my understanding.

If there was nothing on the back, Ancestry attached a generic blank card back to save pointlessly scanning millions of blank cards.

I know I might be assuming a lot, but the chances are that if a card displays with a blank back then it was so on the proper card.

[Ivor Anderson]

No replacement info. on Edward Joseph Austin's BWM & VM medal roll: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41629_625537_9531-00009?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=c07cddbea268eb45df46f0213a37445a&usePUB=true&_phsrc=JTS400&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=2385440

1914 Star roll (C = 'taken into stock'?): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41803_626640_11963-00172?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=9fd92636355bcc717a60c2572e26b1c1&usePUB=true&_phsrc=JTS409&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=4855538

 

Edited 28 September , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[Ivor Anderson]

The trio sold with the DCM are very worn: https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=225&lot_uid=201850

 

[Bilco]

Many thanks to everyone who replied to my query, and for the searches and scans of the medal rolls.

 

The MoD Medal Office replied to my query today:

 

Unfortunately, the MOD Medal Office doesn’t hold any information relating to the issue of WW1 medals for 14231 Sgt E J Austin.

 

As there is nothing on the MIC, or in the rolls, I think this is definitly a suspect group. The original, polished medals with original naming having been sold by DNW, and no record of replacements being issued, I think I'll have to return the group to the dealer - something I have never had to do before!

 

Bill