Action with Sub in Sea of Marmara 1915

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

 

What do you have on this action?

 

Rudat Johannes    Funktelegraphie Obergast Marine    I. Matr-Div, 8. Komp - Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) Ottoman Mine-laying ship "Intibah"    1915-    (born at Berszienen KIA 7-12-15) bei Gefecht mit U-Boot (in combat with submarine) in sea of Marmara grave at Tarabya Istanbul 
 

What Sub was this action with and or any other details of this action?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 18 September , 2020 by stevebecker

[michaeldr]

E11 (Commander Nasmith) was in action around this time.

2nd December torpedoed the Yar Hissar which had 15 Germans on board 5 of whom were rescued

4th December attacked a 5000-ton steamer off Panderma

Next "a despatch vessel coming out of port" near town of Gallipoli - in action for two days, "finally leaving her on fire fore and aft on the north shore of Marmara Island."

No date given for the latter, but it was before 10th December when they met E2

See pages 217-218 of the Naval OH, vol 3

 

Edited 19 September , 2020 by michaeldr
Spelling correction

[KizmeRD]

If the date is correct, then this could only have been Nasmith and E.11, as from 6th November, his was the only allied Sub operating in the Sea of Mamara, until (as Michael says) Stocks joined him with E.2 on the 10th December.

But according to the E.11 patrol report, the dispatch vessel (engaged by gunfire at 12:10 p.m. on 8th December and left on fire) had two masts and two funnels (does that fit the description of Inibah?)

 

Edited 19 September , 2020 by KizmeRD
Additional info added for clarification purposes.

[michaeldr]

Most refs give Intibah as being a minelayer (while in Ottoman service) and she seems to have survived the war

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mine_warfare_vessels_of_the_Ottoman_steam_navy#%C4%B0ntib%C3%A2h

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

two masts and two funnels (does that fit the description of Inibah?)

That description seems to fit

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clydeships.co.uk%2Fview.php%3Fref%3D5739&psig=AOvVaw3jhndXHF4c72azS6v1gb9v&ust=1600599487466000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=2ahUKEwjL4qXwh_XrAhVB0hQKHWK6DWcQjRx6BAgAEAc

Edited 19 September , 2020 by michaeldr

[KizmeRD]

Here’s a post war profile of the ship, two funnels, a foremast, and a crane aft (which might have appeared to Nasmith as a mast).

Edited 19 September , 2020 by KizmeRD
Converted from a salvage tug to minelayer in 1914

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Thanks thats an area to check out.

 

I can find no Ottoman accounts and I found another man shown possibly killed

 

Schmidt Franz    Ob Matrosen Marine     II. Matr-Div., 1. Abtl.- Ottoman Mine-laying ship "Intibah"     1915-    (born at Klein Stepenitz KIA 7-12-15) bei Gefecht mit U-Boot (in combat with submarine) in sea of Marmara grave at Tarabya Istanbul 

 

The ten Germans from the (Yar Hissar) or Ottoman Destoryer "Jarhissar“ or "Yarhisar" killed on the 3 Dec are known, only these two men lost on the Intibah are not?

 

More to look into

 

Cheers

 

S.B
 

Edited 19 September , 2020 by stevebecker

[KizmeRD]

There’s a diary of events chronicling the operations of allied submarines in the Sea of Marmora 1915 written in Bernd Langensiepen & Ahmet Guleryuz’s book ‘The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923’, and according to that account....

 

7th Dcember 1915 - E11 rams and sinks a small sailing boat near Erdek, then proceeds to the east of Gelibolu. At 2000 hrs the submarine opens fire on the Intibah near Sarkov. The minelayer returns fire and E11 dives. Intibah reports slight damage and one killed on arrival at Palanya.

 

8 December 1915 - During the morning E11 and Intibah are in action again off Palanya, without damage to either side.

 

It is by the way a great book for anyone interested in the Ottoman navy (with lots of very fine pictures) and it’s particularly nice to be able to read something authoritative written by German and Turkish co-authors.

 

https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/mode/1up?q=Bernd+Langensiepen

 

[michaeldr]

On 19/09/2020 at 12:47, KizmeRD said:

a post war profile of the ship, two funnels, a foremast, and a crane aft (which might have appeared to Nasmith as a mast).

 

http://www.clydeships.co.uk/files/201307151915550.Intibah ex Warren Hastings 1886.jpg

 

The Clyde Ships site linked to earlier has this picture (at the foot of their page) which is said to date from WWI.

If that dating is correct, then the aerial mast rising from behind the rear funnel may have been what the E11 account was referring to.

 

Thanks for the link to the Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1928

Edited 20 September , 2020 by michaeldr

[KizmeRD]

Sorry, but I couldn’t get the Clyde Shipping link to work for me previously, but the image they have certainly clinches things in terms of showing us what E.11 believed they observed. (if the name of the ship was unknown, and if there were no mines were on deck at the time, then it would certainly have the appearance of a dispatch ship of that era).

Apparently it was armed with a 3” QF gun and two Nordenfelt’s.
 

P.S. Anyone know where Palanya is located? (other than being somewhere in the vicinity of Sarkoy) - was it a small naval base, or perhaps a just a jetty?

 

[michaeldr]

 

On 19/09/2020 at 05:33, michaeldr said:

"a despatch vessel coming out of port" near town of Gallipoli - in action for two days, "finally leaving her on fire fore and aft on the north shore of Marmara Island."

 

On the north shore of the Island of Marmara there is Palatia which may be the same place as Palanya

 

[Guest]

Michael,

 

Mate your the man.

 

I was looking at this man lost on the 17 Oct 1915 and the book (page 41) gives a nice account of the action with E 12.

 

Templin Karl    Ob.Heizer / Stoker Marine     1./2. Shipyard Div. Sdr-Kdo (Sonderkommando) (Ottoman Gunboat "Taschkeprü" or "Tasköprü")     1915-    (born at Gaulitz KIA 17-10-15) bei Gefecht Kanonenboot „Taschkeprü“ - Türkisches Kanonenboot "Tasch Keupru“ (at battle Gunboat "Taschkeprü") in Sea of Marmara grave at Tarabya Istanbul - "Tasköprü" was sunk by Russian destroyers at Kefken Ada 10-12-15 

 

I can now correct this to show the action by British sub's H 1 and E 12 in the Gulf of Izmit and the one killed and a number wounded from this attack. now I know ObHeizer Templin was the one man killed.

 

As to the one man lost on the Intibah, clearly there are two men known killed, possibly one was killed and the other died from wounds but shown as killed a he died the same day?

 

I must admit that the German names they used are mostly incorrect like the CoCommander of the Ottoman Mine layer "Nilüfer" was not Leverhorn but was Sven Cederholm or (Zederholm), not the only one misspelled.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 20 September , 2020 by stevebecker

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, stevebecker said:

 

 

I must admit that the German names they used are mostly incorrect like the CoCommander of the Ottoman Mine layer "Nilüfer" was not Leverhorn but was Sven Cederholm or (Zederholm), not the only one misspelled.

 

 

Probably some of the misspelling of names can probably be put down to the fact that this information would originally have been recorded in the Turkish archives using Perso-Arabic script, and then for us to be able to read it, it needed to be re-translated back into the Latin alphabet.

[michaeldr]

Along side the conundrums produced by the the change of alphabet for Turkish, there could be a similar problem with the German records where their script and typeface also changed post WWI.

Added to this mix we also have a post war change in local place names here: eg Maidos, Rodosto, etc etc etc all disappeared from maps at this time

All of these factors add to the possibility of confusion and error

Edited 21 September , 2020 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

re changes in local place names - Şarköy shows up on the 1915 map as Sharkeui

and today I think that Palatia is Saraylar today

https://www.coastguidetr.com/en/bay/50019/marmara-island-saraylar

 

Edited 21 September , 2020 by michaeldr

[KizmeRD]

6 hours ago, michaeldr said:

 I think that Palatia is Saraylar today

 

Yes, you are absolutely right.

Apart from minor changes in name due to the adoption of a new Turkish alphabet, one also has to remember that prior to WW1 the main population of the island of Marmara was Greek - they all got forced away during the war, and afterwards the island was repopulated with Turks. So Palantia was the former Greek word and Saraylar is the newer Turkish word for the port (thank heavens for old maps).

Edited 21 September , 2020 by KizmeRD