Matlock1418 Posted 1 October , 2020 Share Posted 1 October , 2020 (edited) "E" and "GRU" or "GRU'd" = Explanation = It is now official !!! DGR&E Standing Orders. Revised to 1st May 1918 - page 5 (top right) CWCG/1/1/1/38/3 http://archive.cwgc.org/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=CWGC%2f1%2f1%2f1%2f38%2f3&pos=4 - available as a PDF Edit: with many added pencil markings this document looks like a draft for a further version Also useful in understanding burial and marking processes etc., etc. DGR&E Technical Instructions. Revised to 1st Feb. 1918 CWGC/1/1/1/38/2 http://archive.cwgc.org/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=CWGC%2f1%2f1%2f1%2f38%2f2&pos=2 - available as a PDF Edit; The above two digitised PDF documents seem likely to be a reworking of DGR&E - Standing Orders and Technical Instructions 30/6/16-30/5/17 which is not yet digitised CWGC/1/1/1/38 :-) M Edited 1 October , 2020 by Matlock1418 Addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 1 October , 2020 Share Posted 1 October , 2020 On 18/09/2020 at 23:57, jay dubaya said: (Image copyright - After the Ruins, Hugh Clout - his uncle is buried in the (collective grave?) K 3 The original GRU registered cross for K 3 before the graves would have individual markers. The two locally made crosses behind in row L 7 and 9 have also been registered by the GRU, later these graves will also be marked by a standardised cross - each grave will have 2 crosses for X time. The locally made crosses are sent home/destroyed at X time, the standard crosses remain and are only removed just prior to a permanent headstone that marks the graves we see today? Is it possible to see a clearer readable copy of that photo ? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaykayu Posted 1 October , 2020 Share Posted 1 October , 2020 1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said: "E" and "GRU" or "GRU'd" = Explanation = It is now official !!! DGR&E Standing Orders. Revised to 1st May 1918 - page 5 (top right) CWCG/1/1/1/38/3 http://archive.cwgc.org/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=CWGC%2f1%2f1%2f1%2f38%2f3&pos=4 - available as a PDF Edit: with many added pencil markings this document looks like a draft for a further version Also useful in understanding burial and marking processes etc., etc. DGR&E Technical Instructions. Revised to 1st Feb. 1918 CWGC/1/1/1/38/2 http://archive.cwgc.org/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=CWGC%2f1%2f1%2f1%2f38%2f2&pos=2 - available as a PDF Edit; The above two digitised PDF documents seem likely to be a reworking of DGR&E - Standing Orders and Technical Instructions 30/6/16-30/5/17 which is not yet digitised CWGC/1/1/1/38 :-) M Result! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyne Posted 2 October , 2020 Share Posted 2 October , 2020 Well I have to thank you all - and Aurel for asking the question - for this very interesting topic... just learned something usefull actually in this lessons on international law... not that international law is not interesting, au contraire... but we're being given a lecture by a friend of mine on the classification of conflicts and LOAC and as I could have given the course myself, I'm just listening with one ear and look at my colleagues being completely lost... back on topic... reading burial returns can be tricky, I agree and I'm glad that the question now was asked and answered so that we're all on the same page. M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 2 October , 2020 Share Posted 2 October , 2020 16 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: Is it possible to see a clearer readable copy of that photo ? Tom Hi Tom, here's the best I can get from the image I have - interesting to note there is now a grave between Hunt and Bignell in the row behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 2 October , 2020 Share Posted 2 October , 2020 6 hours ago, jay dubaya said: Hi Tom, here's the best I can get from the image I have - interesting to note there is now a grave between Hunt and Bignell in the row behind. Jay - thanks for that. The burial between Hunt in 1.L.7 and Bignell in 1.L.9 is 26171 P.Duffy of the 2/7th Kings Liverpool Regiment. Those and the graves a few either side appear to be quite "normal" and span the period 8th - 10th Nov 1916. The cross with the multiple names is in fact a "Memorial Cross" and the graves registration form includes the following > Row K at Cement House Cemetery is therefore not what it seems, far from it, Particularly note the way in which the note has been "doctored" to hide the actual information which the GRU and IWGC were originally aware of. This is far from unusual, with the changing / misstating / miss-understanding of information available at the time being very common. Unfortunately this impacts on present day examination of the records, especially as the CWGC seem now to be insistent that what happened post-WW1 equated to present day "Crime Scene Investigations". Not at all unusual -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 3 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 October , 2020 (A bit late, but somehow notifications had not reached me ...) Thanks, Matlock, Tom, Jaykayne, Marilyne and Jay D. (Jon) for your recent postings. (Especially Matlock's "I any case where a cross has been erected the letter "E" should be etc. ...", for that leaves no doubt anymore.) And when I am glad, in the first place it is because my original problem of the OP has answered to my complete satisfaction. And also because after all it did not turn out to be a silly question. For believe me, I've wondered about the E vs. GRU issue for years. And the longer I waited, the more I hesitated, thinking : Nowhere on the GWF can I find the answer. So nobody but me has that problem, so it must be me, not seeing things that are obvious and evident to everybody else. So, my self confidence has been restored. (For a while ... :-) ) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 October , 2020 Share Posted 3 October , 2020 4 minutes ago, Aurel Sercu said: I've wondered about the E vs. GRU issue for years. No worries - glad I found the evidence - I had to turn my original thinking around 180 degrees too! :-) M 13 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: The cross with the multiple names is in fact a "Memorial Cross" and the graves registration form includes the following > Row K at Cement House Cemetery is therefore not what it seems, far from it, If I read it right off my recently downloaded CWGC spreadsheet - Plot 1, Row K has 22 names attributed to 1.K.3 Surname Forename Initials DateOfDeath Rank Regiment Unit ServiceNumber Cemetery GraveRef HORNCASTLE NORMAN N 15/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 26th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 41484 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. LONG HARRY H 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 21/1642 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. ADAM ROBERT McGOWN R M 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Amb 64731 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. MORTIMER SAM S 14/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 26th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 13627 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. COLE JAMES PERCIVAL J P 14/10/1917 Private Dorsetshire Regiment 6th Bn. 20063 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. RUSSELL VIVIAN VICTOR V V 10/10/1917 Trooper Household Battalion 508 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. SANDERSON HARRY H 12/10/1917 Lance Corporal Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 21258 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. BARRETT ERNEST BOYD E B 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Ambulance 76812 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. HERD JAMES SEMPLE J S 16/10/1917 Second Lieutenant Machine Gun Corps 52nd Coy. CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. SHEPLEY GEORGE WILFRED G W 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 31484 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. SHEPPARD ALBERT A 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 41562 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. STOBIE ROBERT R 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Amb 64763 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. WYLIE ALFRED A 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 39848 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. BONNAR JOSEPH JAMES J J 16/10/1917 Corporal Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Ambulance 64436 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. HUTTON WALTER W 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 7399 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. WRIGHT JAMES WILLIAM J W 12/10/1917 Lance Corporal Northumberland Fusiliers 26th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 26/722 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. EASTWOOD W H 17/10/1917 Private East Yorkshire Regiment 7th Bn. 12675 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. EMMERSON C V 16/10/1917 Private Lancashire Fusiliers 10th Bn. 40674 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. ALLEN JOHN J 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Ambulance 65785 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. GRANT ALLAN A 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Amb 93891 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. WILKINSON ALBERT A 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 29/354 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. COBB C A 16/10/1917 Private West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) 10th Bn. 42250 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. Quite a few changes between the GRRF and Headstone Schedule too - some dates changing along the way [Horncastle being one example] Certainly 1.K, and 1.K.3 in particular, appears a rather interesting case I would think. But I think we are moving off Aurel's OP - which is now sorted!!! :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 3 October , 2020 Share Posted 3 October , 2020 9 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: If I read it right off my recently downloaded CWGC spreadsheet - Plot 1, Row K has 22 names attributed to 1.K.3 ... Quite a few changes between the GRRF and Headstone Schedule too - some dates changing along the way [Horncastle being one example] Certainly 1.K, and 1.K.3 in particular, appears a rather interesting case I would think. The origin al graves registration for 1.K starts here > Gets even odder. If you download the entire casualty database for Cement House Cemetery and alphabetically sort the grave ref column you'll find you can account for graves K 1-10 inclusive. Go back to the photo of 1.K above and count the headstones - I wonder if there is something one any of the stones which maybe explains what is going on - otherwise there must have been considerable potential for confusion over the years as relatives looked for their soldier at 1.K.3 (a confusion which still exists). Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 October , 2020 Share Posted 4 October , 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: If you download the entire casualty database for Cement House Cemetery and alphabetically sort the grave ref column you'll find you can account for graves K 1-10 inclusive. I got 43 casualties 17 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: Go back to the photo of 1.K above and count the headstones - I wonder if there is something one any of the stones which maybe explains what is going on Did I count it right? = 37 headstones?? Certainly there is at least one with a double commemoration - Cobb/Stobie Edit: JW - see below: followed up on your other request in the other thread asking about photos of Cement House Cemetery row 1.K :-) M Edited 4 October , 2020 by Matlock1418 Edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 4 October , 2020 Share Posted 4 October , 2020 (edited) This is what I got with FaG Edit: Find a Grave (FaG) https://www.findagrave.com 43 names, [22 in 1.K.3], 37 headstones, - descending below ranked left to right [graves 1-10] - double headstones in bold [listed as inscribed - top over bottom] Surname Forename Initials DateOfDeath Rank Regiment SecondaryRegiment Unit Number Cemetery GraveRef HEDGER ARTHUR EDWIN A E 11/12/1917 Private London Regiment 10th Bn. 424230 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 1. ANDERSON EDWARD E 30/10/1917 Gunner Royal Field Artillery 86th Bty. 32nd Bde. 770743 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 2. MORTIMER SAM S 14/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 26th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 13627 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. EMMERSON C V 16/10/1917 Private Lancashire Fusiliers 10th Bn. 40674 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. WILKINSON ALBERT A 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 29/354 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. SANDERSON HARRY H 12/10/1917 Lance Corporal Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 21258 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. COBB C A 16/10/1917 Private West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own) 10th Bn. 42250 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. STOBIE ROBERT R 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Amb 64763 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. ADAM ROBERT McGOWN R M 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Amb 64731 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. WYLIE ALFRED A 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 39848 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. BARRETT ERNEST BOYD E B 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Ambulance 76812 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. ALLEN JOHN J 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Ambulance 65785 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. GRANT ALLAN A 16/10/1917 Private Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Amb 93891 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. WRIGHT JAMES WILLIAM J W 12/10/1917 Lance Corporal Northumberland Fusiliers 26th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 26/722 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. HERD JAMES SEMPLE J S 16/10/1917 Second Lieutenant Machine Gun Corps 52nd Coy. CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. BONNAR JOSEPH JAMES J J 16/10/1917 Corporal Royal Army Medical Corps 102nd Field Ambulance 64436 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. HUTTON WALTER W 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 7399 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. SHEPPARD ALBERT A 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 41562 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. EASTWOOD W H 17/10/1917 Private East Yorkshire Regiment 7th Bn. 12675 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. SHEPLEY GEORGE WILFRED G W 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 31484 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. HORNCASTLE NORMAN N 15/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 26th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 41484 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. LONG HARRY H 12/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 21/1642 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. RUSSELL VIVIAN VICTOR V V 10/10/1917 Trooper Household Battalion 508 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. COLE JAMES PERCIVAL J P 14/10/1917 Private Dorsetshire Regiment 6th Bn. 20063 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 3. CARTMELL ROBERT WILLIAM R W 20/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 36187 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 4. PASK GEORGE EDWARD G E 20/10/1917 Shoeing Smith Royal Field Artillery 57th Div. Ammunition Col. 696146 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 4. RIDER HARRY H 20/10/1917 Private Suffolk Regiment 11th Bn. 20150 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 4. MORRISON ROBERT FREDERICK R F 19/10/1917 Serjeant Royal Field Artillery "A" Bty. 285th Bde. 675624 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 5. COE ARCHIBALD NICHOLSON A N 21/10/1917 Lance Corporal South African Infantry 4th Regt. 10566 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 5. HUDSON HENRY JOSEPH H J 22/10/1917 Gunner Royal Field Artillery "D" Bty. 157th Bde. 14667 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 5. MORRIS JOHN WILLIAM J W 19/10/1917 Private Queen's Own (Royal West Kent Regiment) 3rd/4th Bn. 241695 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 6. TEBB LEONARD ADOLPHUS L A 21/10/1917 Gunner Royal Horse Artillery "O" Bty. 74723 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 6. MORRIS LAWRENCE STANLEY L S 20/10/1917 Private Suffolk Regiment 11th Bn. 41521 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 6. SPEAR RICHARD THOMAS R T 20/10/1917 Corporal Royal Field Artillery 134th Bty. 32nd Bde. 76844 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 7. BROWN JAMES EDWARD J E 21/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 35893 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 7. KIRK WILLIAM W 21/10/1917 Private 20th Hussars H/28945 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 7. GREATREX HARRY H 22/10/1917 Serjeant Royal Field Artillery "D" Bty. 157th Bde. 61203 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 8. HOLMAN FREDERICK T. F T 21/10/1917 Gunner Royal Field Artillery 76th Bde. Ammunition Col. 926042 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 8. LITTLE W 23/10/1917 Private York and Lancaster Regiment 7th Bn. 35444 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 8. WHITFIELD HENRY M. H M 23/10/1917 Private Northumberland Fusiliers 25th (Tyneside Irish) Bn. 25/695 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 9. SANDERSON GEORGE G 24/10/1917 Private Army Service Corps 33rd Reserve Park T/325350 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 9. SNOW HERBERT JOHN H J 23/10/1917 Acting Bombardier Royal Garrison Artillery 155th Heavy Bty. 87199 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 10. BIBBY THOMAS T 23/10/1917 Gunner Royal Garrison Artillery 129th Heavy Bty. 61266 CEMENT HOUSE CEMETERY I. K. 10. :-) M Edited 5 October , 2020 by Matlock1418 small tweak of layout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 4 October , 2020 Share Posted 4 October , 2020 6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: This is what I got with FaG Can I just observe (as I've done before) that when using abbreviations or acronyms one should write out completely the meaning of the abbreviation or acronym when you first use it, including the acronym itself in parentheses. - He joined the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) ... This ticks the boxes for clarity and accuracy - and, most especially, prevents the uninitiated from getting confused or misled. ("FaG" - a cigarette smoked by the "LWC" ? ). Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 5 October , 2020 Share Posted 5 October , 2020 10 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: 18 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: This is what I got with FaG Can I just observe (as I've done before) that when using abbreviations or acronyms one should write out completely the meaning of the abbreviation or acronym when you first use it, including the acronym itself in parentheses. - He joined the Royal Flying Corps (RFC) ... Tom, You are quite right. [I had moved my original post verbatim from another potentially more ephemeral thread where it was essentially in context] = Find a Grave (FaG) https://www.findagrave.com :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 6 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2020 I am trying to contact Tom Tulloch Marshall (who posted in this Topic), regarding some 40 photos I took for him of row K Plot I in Cement House Cemetery. (See : https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/285339-cement-house-cemetery-photo-request/?tab=comments#comment-2939381 ) But I can't find a way to reach him in PM. :-( I am hoping he will see this, and that he will contact me (PM or e-mail). If not, does anyone know how I can get in touch with him ? (Apart from posting my request in a Topic where he is present ?) Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 6 October , 2020 Share Posted 6 October , 2020 On 02/10/2020 at 22:01, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: Row K at Cement House Cemetery is therefore not what it seems, far from it, Tom, Just quoting you to hopefully more speedily bring to your attention Aurel's post - see above. Aurel, Photos = nice job!! :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 8 October , 2020 Share Posted 8 October , 2020 On 06/10/2020 at 09:51, Aurel Sercu said: I am trying to contact Tom Tulloch Marshall (who posted in this Topic), regarding some 40 photos I took for him of row K Plot I in Cement House Cemetery. (See : https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/285339-cement-house-cemetery-photo-request/?tab=comments#comment-2939381 ) But I can't find a way to reach him in PM. :-( I am hoping he will see this, and that he will contact me (PM or e-mail). If not, does anyone know how I can get in touch with him ? (Apart from posting my request in a Topic where he is present ?) Aurel Hello Aurel - just seen this - things are "interrupted" for the usual and widely known reasons. If you go into GOOGLE and just enter my name (Tom Tulloch-Marshall, not Tom Tulloch Marshall) you should find that the third result is the TNA Independent Researcher's list entry showing my email address. thanks - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 9 October , 2020 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2020 Tom, OK. The photos will soon after this be on their way (WeTransfer). Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 9 October , 2020 Share Posted 9 October , 2020 Thanks Aurel - I've downloaded those. This Row K at Cement House Cemetery fits in with a bigger IWGC "picture" I've been looking at for some time. The info and images are a useful addition. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 10 October , 2020 Share Posted 10 October , 2020 22 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: This Row K at Cement House Cemetery fits in with a bigger IWGC "picture" I've been looking at for some time. Tom, There usually is interest in these I/CWGC cemetery threads - not least when there are unusual burials, patterns or perhaps even various means & marking of burials, in cemeteries. = Might you perhaps share your ideas with us please? I feel sure there will be interest here at GWF. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 11 October , 2020 Share Posted 11 October , 2020 On 10/10/2020 at 19:23, Matlock1418 said: Might you perhaps share your ideas with us please? As others will no doubt have done, I realised many years ago that IWGC / CWGC records are a bit like a swan - what you see above water isn't reflected by what is happening below the water line. It is impossible to spend many years looking at unit records / service record / CWGC records - and various other sundry sources and not realise that "anomalies" are far from uncommon - the bottom line being how many IWGC headstones do not correctly represent what is (or isn't) below them ? - The answer is almost certainly - a lot. One of the key indicators is being able to identify "memorial crosses" (in various forms) and "Memorial plots" which existed when the IWGC took over cemeteries - this thread having brought to the surface the Cement House Plot 1 Row K example which is of the type where the actual burials may well exist in proximity to the collective memorial but not actually under it. I've been building up notes about this phenomena for years - some examples being absolutely glaring - the headstones in Mailly Wood Cemetery which resulted from a memorial cross placed next to the actual crosses of their comrades in that cemetery, - the men on that memorial cross were in a bunker down near Beaumont which took a direct hit from a HE shell. No remains were recovered - as detailed in the unit diary. From the glaringly obvious you can find the bizarre through to the downright disgraceful - that plot at Albert Communal Cemetery Extension for example - the one where they relatively recently had to remove names from headstones - but resisting absolutely removing other names because ... its a long story and as I wasn't the only one who corresponded about that plot I don't want to say too much now - but they know that we know that they know that we know Then, in 2017, they really started to rattle my cage with their blithering nonsense about the Ernest Haxton - Bertie Jeffs ID case. Three years to get that through. This is the problem - the criteria now are apparently > DEMAND "Crime Scene Investigation" evidence / proof positive. IGNORE anything remotely like common sense, calculated argument and case presentation based upon a logical assembly of all available evidence - including explained dismissals of other suggested possibilities. Anyway - Memorial Crosses - far more common then might be thought. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 13 October , 2020 Share Posted 13 October , 2020 On 11/10/2020 at 20:26, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: As others will no doubt have done, I realised many years ago that IWGC / CWGC records are a bit like a swan ... ... ... etc. You are not alone in such thoughts. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 13 October , 2020 Share Posted 13 October , 2020 4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: You are not alone in such thoughts. :-) M There is a "possibly proposed" ID case rattling round at the moment where I have said that as things stand I couldn't put my name to the claim, and I've recommended that nobody else does. To be honest, if I were presented with the case as it stands I'd mark it as "believed to be" at best, and reject it. Pity, as its a Victoria Cross burial. On the other hand there are may cases where the application of just a modicum of common sense and outside the box thinking would go a long (and sensible) way. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterboy Posted 14 October , 2020 Share Posted 14 October , 2020 13 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: There is a "possibly proposed" ID case rattling round at the moment where I have said that as things stand I couldn't put my name to the claim, and I've recommended that nobody else does. To be honest, if I were presented with the case as it stands I'd mark it as "believed to be" at best, and reject it. Pity, as its a Victoria Cross burial. On the other hand there are may cases where the application of just a modicum of common sense and outside the box thinking would go a long (and sensible) way. Tom Tom, instead of putting the carrot, in front of everybody. Please give us more information I.e. Cemetery, plot, row, grave etc. you never know, somebody may look at it and take the case up. It was mentioned on this forum, that the grave of Thomas Highgate had been found. The case between a Shot at Dawn and a VC Winner shouldn’t be clouded and if they can be named, then let it be so. at the current state of affairs, that it’s take up to 5 years to go from the CWGC to the JCCC and then a rededication. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 14 October , 2020 Share Posted 14 October , 2020 10 hours ago, Chesterboy said: Please give us more information I.e. Cemetery, plot, row, grave etc. Sorry, but no. Its actually a pair of adjacent headstone burials covering three unknowns. The current information has no chance of being added to in any meaningful way(*) and there is absolutely no chance that the case could be moved forward unless the authorities had a Bowes-Lyon (or dare I say it, the St Mary's ADS burial) moment. As things stand it would be something of an embarrassment to have one's name linked to it as a serious case. (* Seriously - this might take Dr Who and his Tardis to resolve). Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterboy Posted 15 October , 2020 Share Posted 15 October , 2020 9 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said: Sorry, but no. Its actually a pair of adjacent headstone burials covering three unknowns. The current information has no chance of being added to in any meaningful way(*) and there is absolutely no chance that the case could be moved forward unless the authorities had a Bowes-Lyon (or dare I say it, the St Mary's ADS burial) moment. As things stand it would be something of an embarrassment to have one's name linked to it as a serious case. (* Seriously - this might take Dr Who and his Tardis to resolve). Tom Tom, so, basically you have given us is a load of waffle with no hardened facts to back this up. which I politely asked for. you never know, somebody may wish to take it up. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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