Royal Naval Division - RNVR officers‘ cuff lace

[FROGSMILE]

Watch coats are woollen greatcoats rather than the lighter trenchcoats.  The Army used the term watch coat in the 18th century, when like water canteens they were part of camp equipment (i.e. for collective use), but it was eventually replaced by greatcoat, which was an individual clothing issue.  The navy seem to have retained the term for much longer.

Edited 15 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[KizmeRD]

Thanks, I didn’t know that (I had been wondering about this, but in the end I assumed that it must have been referring to what the army know as trench coats - as have only ever heard the term great coat attached to the much heavier and more formal woollen garment). Appreciate the clarification.

Edited 15 September , 2020 by KizmeRD

[FROGSMILE]

32 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

Thanks, I didn’t know that (I had been wondering about this, but in the end I assumed that it must have been referring to what the army know as trench coats - as have only ever heard the term great coat attached to the much heavier and more formal woollen garment). Appreciate the clarification.

They were really heavy garments originally and primarily intended for sentries, in the Army, and watch duty in the Navy, what we now call foul weather clothing.  In the Navy they were eventually replaced by the famous Duffel coat.
The greatcoat was lighter and could be hooked back to facilitate marching. 

[KizmeRD]

Apologies, but have now consulted the uniform regulations once more and discovered that there is indeed a difference between a great coat and a so called watch coat.

As I recall from my time in the navy, a great coat was an almost full length, very heavy, perfectly tailored woollen outer coat that was only worn (ashore) in cold weather on formal ceremonial occasions when Officers’ swords (and medals) were also required.

It would appear that a watch coat is what the US Navy often refer to as a Pea Coat - a thigh length, far less formal outer coat, also made from woollen material, that is worn with working rig (ideal when standing a night watch on an open bridge - replaced by the duffle coat in WW2).

Edited 16 September , 2020 by KizmeRD
Clarifications added.

[FROGSMILE]

The designs of these coats were often intermixed I think.  The description of the Naval Watch Coat would apply almost equally to the so-called ‘British Warm’, apart from the Taupe colour of the cloth, and the other rank equivalent, for special issue, was actually described as a Pea Coat (in ‘drab’ cloth).  What a heyday it must have been for tailors and outfitters.

Edited 21 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[BOSEB]

On 14/09/2020 at 19:51, FROGSMILE said:

Well as the kitbag he clutches is marked Parker then it seems likely to me that that’s who he is.

Is he holding that kit bag. It looks to me if it is behind him leaning on something.

[RNCVR]

No, I too initially thought his hand was on his kitbag, but he is holding his haversack.

Go back to page 1 where this was mentioned.

 

[NR72]

On 14/09/2020 at 19:10, horatio2 said:

I agree with Frogsmile, They did not always get it right, however. This is Sub Lt Joseph DICKSON RNVR dressed for the MEF. Unfortunately his naval tailor promoted him to Lt RNVR (= Army Captain). Poor chap was KIA at Gallipoli. RIP

I Dont believe this is Dickson , the only joseph Dickson i can find gives this photo 

[michaeldr]

1 hour ago, NR72 said:

I Dont believe this is Dickson , the only joseph Dickson i can find gives this photo 

 

NR72,

As both a magazine and a book have previously given the other chap as Joseph (Muir Findley) Dickson, can you possibly expand on why you think that the one pictured above is the true Nelson Battalion officer of that name?

 

 

[NR72]

10 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

 

NR72,

As both a magazine and a book have previously given the other chap as Joseph (Muir Findley) Dickson, can you possibly expand on why you think that the one pictured above is the true Nelson Battalion officer of that name?

 

 

Just that this photo has been uploaded to LOTFWW site ... Which Book and magazine do they appear in ?

[michaeldr]

The Dickson photograph used by H2's in his post has previously appeared in Len Sellers' magazine RND, issue No.21, June 2002, and in the book Nelson at War 1914-1918 by Captain Roy Swales RN rtd., Pen & Sword Select, 2004.

The photograph credit is given as:- J. Nicol papers at the Liddle Collection, Leeds University

Nicol was also an officer in the Nelson Battalion and I think that one must presume he would have known which officer he was photographing

Edited 20 November , 2020 by michaeldr

[NR72]

8 hours ago, michaeldr said:

The Dickson photograph used by H2's in his post has previously appeared in Len Sellers' magazine RND, issue No.21, June 2002, and in the book Nelson at War 1914-1918 by Captain Roy Swales RN rtd., Pen & Sword Select, 2004.

The photograph credit is given as:- J. Nicol papers at the Liddle Collection, Leeds University

Nicol was also an officer in the Nelson Battalion and I think that one must presume he would have known which officer he was photographing

Ahh fair enough , yes thats pretty conclusive 

[NR72]

21 hours ago, michaeldr said:

The Dickson photograph used by H2's in his post has previously appeared in Len Sellers' magazine RND, issue No.21, June 2002, and in the book Nelson at War 1914-1918 by Captain Roy Swales RN rtd., Pen & Sword Select, 2004.

The photograph credit is given as:- J. Nicol papers at the Liddle Collection, Leeds University

Nicol was also an officer in the Nelson Battalion and I think that one must presume he would have known which officer he was photographing

Hi Michael i've done some digging and the photo i uploaded originates from St Bees School Roll of honour Book , so the plot thickens ......

[Ron Clifton]

On 14/09/2020 at 20:08, RNCVR said:

I thought that was St. In front of V. Was about to look him up in the N.L.

 

Kind of throws a spanner into the gears now !!!

I think that the St is probably correct, especially if he is a descendant of Sir John Jarvis, who took the title of Earl St Vincent after his success at the battle of Cape St Vincent. Of course, it doesn't meant that he may not used the simple Vincent in everyday life.

 

Ron

[michaeldr]

33 minutes ago, NR72 said:

the photo i uploaded originates from St Bees School Roll of honour Book , so the plot thickens ......

 

22 hours ago, michaeldr said:

I think that one must presume he would have known which officer he was photographing

 

Perhaps my 'must' (before 'presume') was over-egging it a bit?

 

The plot does indeed thicken

If the officer photographed by Nicol was not Dickson, then who was he?

Curiouser and curiouser

[NR72]

On 14/09/2020 at 21:05, headgardener said:

The trouble with the ‘Parker’ theory is that St Vincent John Parker-Jarvis was also a t/Sub Lt, just like Dickson.

and it seems a Honorary 2 Lieutenant RM...

[michaeldr]

On 20/11/2020 at 13:36, NR72 said:

Just that this photo has been uploaded to LOTFWW site ...

Are you able to provide a link for this?

I've been looking all over for the photograph which you reproduced but have so far been unable to find it

I've not had any success using the St. Bees School reference either

[NR72]

13 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Are you able to provide a link for this?

I've been looking all over for the photograph which you reproduced but have so far been unable to find it

I've not had any success using the St. Bees School reference either

Hi Michael , here you go https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/6101279

 

I have tried to look for St Bees book (The Roll of Honour and the Record of Old St.Beghians 1914-1919 , complied by J W Aildous) i can find the web page

https://www.stbees.org.uk/home/village/world-wars-dead/roll-of-honour/

but unfortunately the book in its entirety has not been digitised. Although is available to buy   

[michaeldr]

 

Thanks NR72,

Apparently (per www.whitehavenparish.org.uk) there is also a photograph of him to be seen page 8 of the “Whitehaven News” dated 5th November 1914

 

[NR72]

3 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

 

Thanks NR72,

Apparently (per www.whitehavenparish.org.uk) there is also a photograph of him to be seen page 8 of the “Whitehaven News” dated 5th November 1914

 

Do you have the link ?

 

[michaeldr]

Alas, no - not to the newspaper

but this is from the Whitehaven Parish site:- 

Sub Lieutenant Dickson of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, Nelson Battalion was missing presumed killed in the Dardanelles on 13^th July 1915 aged 20.

He is commemorated on Panels 8 to 15 of the Helles Memorial, Turkey.

He was the son of Dr. Joseph H and Mrs Florence Evelyn Dickson (nee Hetherington) of 30 Queen Street (72 Lowther Street in 1901). He was educated at St. Bees School (Grindal House) from 1907 to 1912 and belonged to the Football XV in his last year. He had been farming at Norwich, Ontario, Canada when war broke out and initially joined the Grey’s Horse, Canadian Militia, but they were not to be mobilised so he returned to England.

He was born on 23^rd August 1894, and commissioned as Temporary Sub Lieutenant on 7^th October 1914. He was posted to the Nelson Battalion on 25^th January 1915. On 1^st March 1915 he was sent to the Dardanelles, and took part in the ‘feint’ movement at Saros Bay on 25^th April. He was next sent to reinforce the ANZACS and saw continuous fighting. Some of his division got too far ahead, they took three trenches and were endeavouring to take a fourth when machine guns were turned on them.

There is a photograph of him on page 24 of the St. Bees School Roll of Honour and on page 8 of the “Whitehaven News” dated 5^th November 1914.

 

NB: the above truncates his service at Gallipoli, since after Anzac the Nelsons were at Helles which is where Dickson died

Edited 23 November , 2020 by michaeldr

[NR72]

57 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Alas, no - not to the newspaper

but this is from the Whitehaven Parish site:- 

Sub Lieutenant Dickson of the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve, Nelson Battalion was missing presumed killed in the Dardanelles on 13^th July 1915 aged 20.

He is commemorated on Panels 8 to 15 of the Helles Memorial, Turkey.

He was the son of Dr. Joseph H and Mrs Florence Evelyn Dickson (nee Hetherington) of 30 Queen Street (72 Lowther Street in 1901). He was educated at St. Bees School (Grindal House) from 1907 to 1912 and belonged to the Football XV in his last year. He had been farming at Norwich, Ontario, Canada when war broke out and initially joined the Grey’s Horse, Canadian Militia, but they were not to be mobilised so he returned to England.

He was born on 23^rd August 1894, and commissioned as Temporary Sub Lieutenant on 7^th October 1914. He was posted to the Nelson Battalion on 25^th January 1915. On 1^st March 1915 he was sent to the Dardanelles, and took part in the ‘feint’ movement at Saros Bay on 25^th April. He was next sent to reinforce the ANZACS and saw continuous fighting. Some of his division got too far ahead, they took three trenches and were endeavouring to take a fourth when machine guns were turned on them.

There is a photograph of him on page 24 of the St. Bees School Roll of Honour and on page 8 of the “Whitehaven News” dated 5^th November 1914.

 

NB: the above truncates his service at Gallipoli, since after Anzac the Nelsons were at Helles which is where Dickson died

We need to find someone with the hard copy of that book