The National Archives

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Has anybody actually been able to book an appointment at TNA during the past few weeks - or even make sense of this ? >

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/news/coronavirus-update/

 

10 in the morning till 2:50pm, four days a week - its a hard life, isn't it 

Tom

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Two and a half weeks on and two sets of email exchanges with TNA later (civil service flim-flam)- and I still can't get access to original documents.

Hard to think of anywhere where social distancing could be easier to implement - Sainsburys today were coping very well ... TNA resident here care to comment ?

 

[Gareth Davies]

I have tried almost every Monday since the scheme began but with no luck. It's very frustrating.

[Jim Strawbridge]

On 13/09/2020 at 23:03, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

Has anybody actually been able to book an appointment at TNA during the past few weeks - or even make sense of this ? >

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/news/coronavirus-update/

 

10 in the morning till 2:50pm, four days a week - its a hard life, isn't it 

Tom

 

To be fair, Tom, the sentence continues :- "we will be open between 10:00 and 14:50, and your appointment will last for the whole day". I am guessing that the door-keeper/receptionist locks the door to new visitors at 14.50 but those inside can continue to research after that. Why only four days? I can only guess that staff numbers are depleted during these Covid times and/or some satitization needs to take place in public areas. 

[Buffnut453]

I'm due to go tomorrow (if all goes to plan).  I'll report back on my findings.

 

You have to be fast to make a booking.  Bookings open 2 weeks in advance at 1000 and you have to jump in right at that time.  Have your reader ticket number and the document references to hand so you can enter the data quickly.  The system times out after 15 mins and you'll lose your slot if you haven't completed the booking.

[Guest]

Better steer clear of The British Library as well chaps.  It's "free-for-all", first come,first served  book a slot system is shambolic.   Kick-off time is Thursday 11 a.m. for the following week.  Up to 10.59 and 59 seconds, it says website down for essential maintenance-and at 11.a.m. and 0 seconds it switches to:

 

 

Our Box Office is a bit busy

 

Sorry for the delay, we’re seeing extremely high demand for tickets at the moment.

 

If this message persists, please try clearing your browser cache or clicking CTRL F5 to force a refresh of the page, or alternatively try another browser.

 

Thank you for your patience, we’ll get you into the Box Office as quickly as possible.

 

Both TNA and BL do have to answer the same question.   Restricted spaces  to ensure social distancing?  OK,go along with that.  Restricted  services-  ibid?   Restricted time?  Now just what is the justification for that?   Overhead costs have to be met regardless, so with restricted space, why pile on the misery by restricting the time as well?  Bonkers.

   Have all the apparatchiks been watching the great Peter Sellers and the even greater Ian Carmichael in "I'm Alright Jack"   Someone is doing alright out of "public services" out of the "public" purse. Only it aint the public

Edited 1 October , 2020 by Guest

[Buffnut453]

Part of the challenge, as I understand it, is that documents are also quarantined for a period to ensure COVID isn't spread because different customers access the same document.  That will clearly impose cost, time and space challenges I. Handling the books. 

 

Plus, I'm guessing that Kew and similar organisations, aren't bringing all their staff into work at the same time, which further limits the number of documents that can be handled on a given day.

 

It's not just the public who have to be protected.  The staff must also be protected, and the length of time that COVID can survive on cardboard suggests there's some merit in taking precautions with items that may be touched by multiple people.

[Guest]

Just now, Buffnut453 said:

Part of the challenge, as I understand it, is that documents are also quarantined for a period to ensure COVID isn't spread because different customers access the same document.  That will clearly impose cost, time and space challenges I. Handling the books. 

 

Plus, I'm guessing that Kew and similar organisations, aren't bringing all their staff into work at the same time, which further limits the number of documents that can be handled on a given day.

 

It's not just the public who have to be protected.  The staff must also be protected, and the length of time that COVID can survive on cardboard suggests there's some merit in taking precautions with items that may be touched by multiple people.

 

     Regret I must profoundly disagree.  Items are quarantined  for circa 3 days as protection against the ability of corona virus to endure.  If an archive item has been exposed,say, to the risk of corona virus from me, then that quarantine remains the same regardless. It would be the same if the period that I was handling the item was only 5 minutes.  There is a maximum of the number of items that can be used, so the limits of possible contagion are already controlled. Limit to extent of items that could be infected, limit to time used (by reducing hours) and limits at Kew to where you can move. If one is allowed a maximum number of items and an item has to be handled regardless of whether it is used for one minute only or the whole of TNA opening time, then a fixed quarantine time  goes against sense.  If the time is fixed for quarantine, then why restrict the time the place is open if the quarantine time is the same?? I am not advocating a reduction in quarantine  but,merely, that once an item is out and "infected" then reducing opening hours makes no sense.

    I think you have obliquely hit the nail on the head-  it's all about economy.  It will be interesting indeed to see whether various institutions go back to status quo ante or simply try to extend the "temporary" cutbacks into permanent ones. It's now we should be shouting-so the powers-that-be do not get too complacent that they can cut,cut,cut what they like (and still get the same tranches of public monies)

 

"because different customers access the same document"    No, cannot be done until quarantine has expired.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

10 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

I'm due to go tomorrow (if all goes to plan).  I'll report back on my findings.

 

Good - look forward to hearing what is actually going on. TNA's replies to my mails have been tosh and have failed to address the main issues raised.

Tom

[Buffnut453]

 

     Regret I must profoundly disagree.  Items are quarantined  for circa 3 days as protection against the ability of corona virus to endure.  If an archive item has been exposed,say, to the risk of corona virus from me, then that quarantine remains the same regardless. It would be the same if the period that I was handling the item was only 5 minutes.  There is a maximum of the number of items that can be used, so the limits of possible contagion are already controlled. Limit to extent of items that could be infected, limit to time used (by reducing hours) and limits at Kew to where you can move. If one is allowed a maximum number of items and an item has to be handled regardless of whether it is used for one minute only or the whole of TNA opening time, then a fixed quarantine time  goes against sense.  If the time is fixed for quarantine, then why restrict the time the place is open if the quarantine time is the same?? I am not advocating a reduction in quarantine  but,merely, that once an item is out and "infected" then reducing opening hours makes no sense.

    I think you have obliquely hit the nail on the head-  it's all about economy.  It will be interesting indeed to see whether various institutions go back to status quo ante or simply try to extend the "temporary" cutbacks into permanent ones. It's now we should be shouting-so the powers-that-be do not get too complacent that they can cut,cut,cut what they like (and still get the same tranches of public monies)

 

"because different customers access the same document"    No, cannot be done until quarantine has expired.

You're cherry-picking just one part of my post.  I also observed that it's likely the UKNA isn't bringing in all their staff at the same time so that, if one person tests positive, it doesn't cause the entire system to break down.  Operating with partial staff while having to accommodate additional handling administration (due to the need to quarantine the documents after use) will impose challenges on operating the archive, so I'm not at all surprised that hours are reduced and access to documents is limited.  

 

The idea that the hours have been cut to save money seems odd to me, unless the UKNA staff are on hourly wages.  AFAIK, the furlough scheme only applied to private sector employees.  Civil servants were expected to continue working from home and were paid accordingly (again, happy to be proved wrong on this).  

 

If UKNA return-to-work is similar to other government departments, then it's likely that only 25-30% of staff are in the office at any one time.  There's no way you can run a full operation on those staffing levels.  

[Buffnut453]

Ok....just got back from UKNA.  It was scarily quiet compared to other times I've been there.  Here are some notes which, I hope, will be of use/interest.:

 

Entry Procedures:

Arrival activities are focused into the hour before the Reading Room opens.  Customers can wait in the cafe, as was the case before, although the whole area is socially distanced with tables 2m apart and only one seat at each table.  The bag check is rather more complicated than previously but I was impressed by the fastidiousness of the staff in ensuring the table was wiped down and gloved hands were sanitized after every customer.  Basically, you have to open your bag and empty the contents sufficiently so the security bod can see the bottom of the bag.  You then step back so you can maintain 2m separation while he/she examines the bag.  It's a bit of a faff but if you just do what the staff ask, it goes very smoothly.  As per usual, customers can use the lockers for storing any items they aren't taking into the reading rooms.  However, the only locker you can use is the one that's associated with your seat number (they've added labels so you know which locker is yours).  At Reading Room opening time, the staff ask you to queue back from the stairs towards the shop, and they allow a couple of customers upstairs at a time.  This is to prevent queues building up at the Reading Room while staff check reader's tickets and ensure customers aren't bringing anything into the room that you shouldn't (the staff form the queue on the ground floor because social distancing is easier there than upstairs).  

 

Reading Room:

The only items you can take into the reading rooms are computers, cell phones, cameras or tablets (plus chargers for them), and even then it's only 2 of the 4 items.  No pencils or notepads are allowed, and the reusable clear plastic bags are nowhere to be seen.  There are no bags, of any kind, allowed in the reading rooms.  Each person is assigned a single table, which is the "seat number" you're given when you book your appointment (and which matches the locker number you used downstairs).  The documents you ordered are sitting on a trolley at your table, waiting for you, along with a paper list of the documents you ordered.  It's rather nice to be able to just sit at your desk, and go through the documents one at a time.  In fact, the ability to "spread out a bit" is also quite nice (sometimes, a single desk got a bit cramped with a large book-style document, plus the box it came in, and your computer etc).  When you're finished, simply pile all the documents back on the trolley, leave it at your desk, and, as you exit, tell the staff member at the entrance to the Reading Room that you're done for the day.  

 

Other Stuff:

Only the Reading Room and Map Room are open.  The cafe, bookshop and exhibition area are all closed.  Social distancing measures have been attempted everywhere, from arrows on the floor, to separation marks for queuing lines, and even to the lavatories.  Hand sanitizer dispensers are available in lots of locations so there's no excuse for not regularly cleaning your hands.  

 

Staff Situation and Attitude:

I spoke to a few of the staff.  All expressed their frustration at their inability to open up more services.  Plans were afoot but the recent increase in cases in the UK has forced those plans to be put on hold.  Daily staffing levels are well below 25%: one of the welcoming staff said that it was a "skeleton crew" every day.  They are quarantining records after use for 3 days in an attempt to prevent COVID spreading via the documents, the boxes etc.  Also, staff that handle the documents after they've been used by customers are also quarantining after being in work, just to be on the safe side.  The staff fully recognize the frustration caused by the booking process.  They're getting thousands of people hitting the booking site when the seats open up each Monday and realize there's a lot of demand for the UKNA to open up more.  The staff recognize this is far from ideal and desperately want to do more, but things are unlikely to change until the Government starts allowing more people back to work (note that Government direction to all Civil Servants at present is to work from home to the maximum extent possible).  

[DavidOwen]

Sounds like they are doing a bang up job, well done TNA

[Buffnut453]

I got there good and early and, although I wasn't first in line, I was at my seat by 1015 at the absolute latest (I wasn't checking my watch).  Having all 9 documents available made the job of collecting the required data pretty easy, and I wasn't wasting time dashing back and forth (or waiting for documents I'd ordered to arrive).  As is my usual practice, I just go through the files and take images of the pages that are relevant to my research.  Today, I took around 420 pics and was finished by 1330.  Not a bad day's work.  

 

It should also be noted that UKNA does offer a few 2-day bulk order bookings.  You select whether you want a bulk order when you make the booking.  The bulk order can be for 20-40 documents but they have to come from the same record series.  

 

I should note that London is relatively quiet compared to what I was used to when I worked there a dozen or so years ago.  I was using the Tube this afternoon in the period 1600-1730 and the cars still had several seats available (at that time...on a Friday!  It's unheard of!  Gone are the days when people would be cramming in at the doors).  It seems that a majority of people are still working from home.  I walked past MOD Main Building and there was scarcely a soul around.  Certainly a lot quieter than I'm used to.  I add this for context because it lends credence to what the UKNA staff said about being on skeleton staffing: the rest of London seems to be taking a similar approach.  The UKNA literally don't have the staff in work to expand services and the Government continues to push the "work from home" approach.  

[Jim Clay]

1 hour ago, DavidOwen said:

Sounds like they are doing a bang up job, well done TNA

Agreed.

[Guest]

Buffnut-Thank you for the update. What TNA has done now makes perfect sense- albeit still frustrating.Good to know -from a sort of "all in the mess together" angle-that TNA isnt that happy either.  A comparison with other institutions,local and national will always throw up inconsistencies, which I think may cause problems later on as closed libraries and archives are now beginning to quote next Spring or next Summer for a graduated expansion of re-opening.

(Those of us living in London will be aware of the use of these sorts of terms with the continued postponements to Crossrail-"Spring" means the last possible day of Met Office "Spring"-ie 31st May, etc,)

   Unsuccessful again for TNA tickets again.  Ah well, I must console myself with buying Eurolottery tickets-as the odds of winning a rollover jackpot seem slightly better. At least if I do not get to TNA this year (or next) then I should be able to spend my Eurolottery winnings apace- Wonder what Fortnum and Mason are doing in the way of peeled grapes this Noel? -plus, a call to a temp.agency to hire some lascivious handmaidens to feed them...and as for the old dilemma between Krug and Bollinger,the less said the better....... 

    You also alerted me to the revised conditions as well,which I had missed- esp. the bit about no notebooks. I hope TNA are liberal in their handouts of paper.  Makes me wonder-seriously- if one is allowed to use a pencil sharpener when there for fear that the shavings might have contagion.

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Unsuccessful again for TNA tickets again. 

 

Ditto

 

On 02/10/2020 at 17:25, Buffnut453 said:

No pencils or notepads are allowed,

 

So if you are looking at original documents and you have, say, lists of place names, personnel, numbers etc etc etc - you are not allowed to take those lists in with you ? You cannot have a pencil so you cannot make notes or cross things off your lists - this is an archive ?

Tom

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

So if you are looking at original documents and you have, say, lists of place names, personnel, numbers etc etc etc - you are not allowed to take those lists in with you ? You cannot have a pencil so you cannot make notes or cross things off your lists - this is an archive ?

 

   No-pencils are allowed (but not the ones with rubbers,as you might use the metal bit to shred public records-I suppose,if you are minded,then just tear up the public records manually as you go along. Or erase public records written in pencil)

 "Research material" not allowed. Or umbrellas ....but as the late,great and completely bonkers Lt Col A.D.Wintle,MC stated anyone who unfurled an umbrella was a cad anyway

At first reading, there appears to be nothing  to prevent you going in with a parrot on your shoulder- but I don't think any amount of Albert Haddock litigant-in-person eloquence will likely get you a win on that one.

 

 

 

The general rules, for the benefit of GWF colleagues are:

 

What can I take into the reading rooms?

To help us ensure the safety of our visitors and staff, and preserve the records for future generations, please observe our updated guidance for using the reading rooms and handling documents:

• Only bring what you need with you – the fewer items you have, the quicker it will be for us to check when you arrive
• You may now bring pencils (without erasers) into the reading rooms – please ask a member of staff for paper if you need it
• You may also take two items from the following list into the reading room with you: laptop, tablet, mobile phone or camera. Chargers for your chosen device(s) will be allowed
• You may not bring your own paper, pens or research material
• Ensure you have turned the sound (and flash) off on your electronic devices, and keep sound levels low if you are using headphones
• No coats, bags or umbrellas – please leave in the lockers provided on the ground floor
• No food, drink, sweets or gum
• No sharp objects
• Please wash your hands before and after visiting the reading rooms

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

What can I take into the reading rooms? ... You may not bring your own paper, pens or research material

 

On 05/10/2020 at 21:28, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

So if you are looking at original documents and you have, say, lists of place names, personnel, numbers etc etc etc - you are not allowed to take those lists in with you ? You cannot have a pencil so you cannot make notes or cross things off your lists - this is an archive ?

 

So any researcher who manages the almost impossible task of actually getting an "appointment" to see original documents cannot take in research notes which are essential to facilitate the research - and is therefore expected to be some sort of William Bottle - who performed in music halls and theatres as "Datas: The Memory Man" - the memory man portrayed in the film "The 39 Steps" ?

 

The country is going down the financial pan - and the hordes in the publicly funded sector are .... its all madness.

Tom

 

 

 

[D Rider]

Why can't you bring your own paper or research material in? Are they expecting people to remember every detail of what they are looking for? sounds a bit daft that one.  

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, D Rider said:

Why can't you bring your own paper or research material in? Are they expecting people to remember every detail of what they are looking for? sounds a bit daft that one.  

 

 

    I suspect the rationale is the COVID can survive on paper longer than on other surfaces -thus, the precautions to protect TNA and the archives. Consequently, the risk that COVID on paper records coming inwards with readers may be more of a threat. 

    The query I raised re. sharpening of pencils was not facetious either- I use pencil and paper but soft modern pencils need quite a bit of sharpening-leaving a potentially contagion-ridden trail of shavings. 

[keithmroberts]

 Unsuccessful again for TNA tickets again.  Ah well, I must console myself with buying Eurolottery tickets-as the odds of winning a rollover jackpot seem slightly better.

 

I was fortunate enough to win the lottery at around lunchtime yesterday and now have a seat booked for the 22nd. I'm not sure whether my Baldrick style cunning plan was the winner, or whether there was a cancellation, but I just scrolled to the last day  viewable, and worked back. I share that because one day should suffice me for some time. I won't be able to completely clear my search list, but had previously made an attempt to prioritise it, so am a happy bunny.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, keithmroberts said:

 

I was fortunate enough to win the lottery at around lunchtime yesterday and now have a seat booked for the 22nd. I'm not sure whether my Baldrick style cunning plan was the winner, or whether there was a cancellation, but I just scrolled to the last day  viewable, and worked back. I share that because one day should suffice me for some time. I won't be able to completely clear my search list, but had previously made an attempt to prioritise it, so am a happy bunny.

 

 

      Which is fair enough.  I managed to get 2 BL slots unexpectedly at about 6.30pm on Monday-   7.5 hours online to get a 3 hour slot.  And that just popped up on screen-no amount of Baldrickian cunning could have forced it. 

    TNA is unfathomable.  I suppose, to keep this Great War oriented, I must simply heed the advice of the late Sir Harry Lauder-"Keep right on to the end of the road"  However, I am not sure whether the TNA model can stagger through what increasingly looks like at least the whole of next year.  Clearly, for the user it is an awkward and unsustainable model- with lots of value judgements hoving into view-is the game really worth the candle??  As a public-service model, it is unsustainable.  As a financial model it is unsustainable.

   Corona virus is not going to go away-the only proposed "solution" will be-hopefully-the development of a vaccine. But thereafter Corona Virus itself will still be endemic-which raises fundamental questions about where TNA is going, the more so if the virus itself will be an ever-present. If the virus is a perpetual guest, then when does the current TNA system also become perpetual?  Vaccine or no, there appears to be no concept at all of a final whistle on this.

 

Edited 6 October , 2020 by Guest

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

As a public-service model, it is unsustainable.  As a financial model it is unsustainable.

 

It isn't only unsustainable - it has been effectively unworkable ever since it was introduced. I repeat >

"So if you are looking at original documents and you have, say, lists of place names, personnel, numbers etc etc etc - you are not allowed to take those lists in with you ? You cannot have a pencil so you cannot make notes or cross things off your lists - this is an archive ?"

"So any researcher who manages the almost impossible task of actually getting an "appointment" to see original documents cannot take in research notes which are essential to facilitate the research - and is therefore expected to be some sort of William Bottle - who performed in music halls and theatres as "Datas: The Memory Man" - the memory man portrayed in the film "The 39 Steps" ?"

 

Many organisations outside of the taxpayer-funded bubble are managing remarkably well - shops, supermarkets, petrol stations, etc etc - there isn't a single public-facing business or outlet in my village which doesn't seem to be functioning fairly normally - ditto in both nearest towns. The local council offices though .... different story.

 

Pretending that a researcher is unlikely not to need to take notes / lists with them (will essentially need to have with them) is completely farcical and to be honest leaves one wondering whether whoever dreamt up this scheme has any understanding of how their archive is used and the processes involved in carrying our archive research.

 

Pointing out that the situation is "unsustainable" isn't going have much effect on people who are being paid full salary to "work from home" >

Tom

 

[Chris_Baker]

I think we must accept that this is an emergency model of operating. The question is whether TNA is yet even considering how to move beyond emergency. It's hard to see, as we stand, that anything is going to change for the better for a considerable time.

[Gareth Davies]

10 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

 

It isn't only unsustainable - it has been effectively unworkable ever since it was introduced. I repeat >

"So if you are looking at original documents and you have, say, lists of place names, personnel, numbers etc etc etc - you are not allowed to take those lists in with you ? You cannot have a pencil so you cannot make notes or cross things off your lists - this is an archive ?"

"So any researcher who manages the almost impossible task of actually getting an "appointment" to see original documents cannot take in research notes which are essential to facilitate the research - and is therefore expected to be some sort of William Bottle - who performed in music halls and theatres as "Datas: The Memory Man" - the memory man portrayed in the film "The 39 Steps" ?"

 

 

 

 

Put your list and research notes on a tablet (or on the cloud, the NA has good wifi internet) and it can be your list, camera, and notebook. Sorted.