Simon J Emmerson Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 Hi. I'm looking at the shoulder title of this unidentified Pte. Could he possibly be (Pembrokeshire Yeomanry) 24th Welsh Regiment? The reverse of the card is blank. Regards Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 never seen this variation on a welsh title before, interesting pic simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 The cap badge fits with Pembrokeshire Yeomanry. I can't see the word 'FISHGUARD' but a very close match I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 (edited) A very intriguing photo and I think that you’re probably correct that it shows a private of the 24th Bn Welsh Regt. He appears to have a collar badge variant of the Pembrokeshire Yeomanry above his shoulder title, which seems a typically clever way to show the unit’s origin. If you examine the photo minutely you can just about discern the FISHGUARD scroll at the base of the PoW feathers on his shoulder strap. It’s not something that I’ve ever seen before. Edited 13 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 Definitely an intriguing photo and a I cant see that there would be any another explanation. One wonders if an image of his Glamorgan counterpart will turn up with a dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 Sorry, but I have to disagree with froggy, the device above the wales title, apart from being the p of w feathers, looks nothing like the fishguard title shown imo, nor any of the variants I own. it is more likely another version of the p of w feathers, though which I could not say, perhaps a sweetheart badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Jerry B said: Sorry, but I have to disagree with froggy, the device above the wales title, apart from being the p of w feathers, looks nothing like the fishguard title shown imo, nor any of the variants I own. it is more likely another version of the p of w feathers, though which I could not say, perhaps a sweetheart badge I agree that it does not look exactly the same as the badge image that I've posted Jerry, and I know also that you have an excellent collection of Welsh insignia. It's overall shape is not a variant that I'm familiar with either, it's certainly not the common pattern. That said, I'm positive that he would not get away with wearing a sweetheart brooch on his shoulder strap unless it was a one-off just for the photo and that seems unlikely. Looking then at the possibilities that might apply to the Welsh Regiment it occurred to me that perhaps the OP is right in that the Pembrokeshire are one of the Yeomanry units associated with the regiment in WW1 (dismounted to become infantry like so many others) and that none of the other possibilities, e.g. Glamorganshire, fit as we know that their collar badges are different. I then examined the badge and it is obvious that the badge is a longer (taller) representation of the PoW feathers than usual. It's possible to make out the usual ICH DIEN scrolls protruding about half way down the badge, below that I believe is another wider than usual scroll with the quill ends of the feathers extending beneath. It seems reasonable then to assume that the longer scroll perhaps bears Pembrokeshire upon it and so on the balance of probabilities, and having ruled other contenders out, is most likely related to that regiment. It's difficult to conceive what else it could possibly be. Perhaps it's the all white metal variant in both, the bottom left and top right corner of the enclosed group image. Notice the quill tips at the base. Other insignia aficionados welcome to wade in..... Edited 13 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 (edited) it is the other possible scroll below that has mee thrown, it is not pembs, as far as I am aware there were only ever two shaped collars, the type you showed which comes in osd, white metal, bi metal and silver and gilt as well as aa/staybright and one short lived version that only came in OSD, I think. there are other P Of W feathers collars, including wilts, s.lancs royal hussars and obviously the welsh etc but nothing matches exactly, the closest I have is this unknown collar but it does not have the lower scroll. I also show an old comrades lapel badge fort he welsh which is quite close in shape but not exact Edited 13 September , 2020 by Jerry B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 a hopefully better version of just the pembs badges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 Nice collection Jerry, I too have a collar badge very similar to your unknown, I’ve always believed it to be to the Leinster‘s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 (edited) Good images, but none show the badges top right and bottom left of the group I posted that are apparently a Pembrokeshire variant. I am struck by how similar the Leinster Regiment's collar badge (enclosed and also used by the PoWV South Lancs) is in shape to the badge in subject photo. Notice the wider scrolls and the way the coronet protrudes on each side. I think this might be it. Afternote: I see that Jay has spotted the same thing. Edited 13 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Good images, but none show the badges top right and bottom left of the group I posted that are apparently a Pembrokeshire variant. where did you get the image from and the info that the two white metal badges you mention are pembs variants? I never heard of them as a pembs variant and obviously the image you shared contains a wide range of badges from many of the welsh regiments and not just the pembs, so it would be great to have the reference for them. 12 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: Nice collection Jerry, I too have a collar badge very similar to your unknown, I’ve always believed it to be to the Leinster‘s Thank you, you might be correct as I think I was told that previously but never noted it on the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 West Yorkshire RVC and TF units also used the same pattern as the Leinster’s. All other PoW Plumes appear squat in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Jerry B said: where did you get the image from and the info that the two white metal badges you mention are pembs variants? I never heard of them as a pembs variant and obviously the image you shared contains a wide range of badges from many of the welsh regiments and not just the pembs, so it would be great to have the reference for them. Thank you, you might be correct as I think I was told that previously but never noted it on the pics. It's just a set from an auction site Jerry, and there's nothing definite to say that they're definitely Pembroke related, it's just that both badges are among groups of Pembroke's so it seemed a reasonable link to make. It would be odd if they were put there for no reason. Edited 13 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 2 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: West Yorkshire RVC and TF units also used the same pattern as the Leinster’s. All other PoW Plumes appear squat in comparison. Yes Jay, also PWO Volunteers South Lancashire Regiment shared the pattern with the Leinsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes Jay, also PWO Volunteers South Lancashire Regiment shared the pattern with the Leinsters. Can’t say anything I’ve ever seen a South Lancs collar without a lower scroll. Even the Welsh collar variants don’t fit with the OP image, which, as it appears is a real treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 September , 2020 Share Posted 13 September , 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: Can’t say anything I’ve ever seen a South Lancs collar without a lower scroll. Even the Welsh collar variants don’t fit with the OP image, which, as it appears is a real treat. Hang on I might be confusing it with the West Yorks, I'll check and report back as an afternote..... Afternote: Yes it was the West Yorks that shared the pattern with the Leinsters, I should have checked first. The South Lancs did have a plain feathers badge for a while but it was a more curly type. As you say, most of the time it had a title scroll. Edited 13 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon J Emmerson Posted 14 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 14 September , 2020 Very interesting discussion Gentlemen. I thought I'd add this Studio photo postcard into the mix too. It may back up my theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 September , 2020 Share Posted 14 September , 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Simon J Emmerson said: Very interesting discussion Gentlemen. I thought I'd add this Studio photo postcard into the mix too. It may back up my theory. It’s certainly the same badge on his shoulder strap, but I do think that the elongated pattern is that regulated for the Leinster and West Yorkshire regiments, so there must be a story as to how this particular Welsh Regiment battalion came to be wearing them. A key feature is the way that the 3 quill tips protrude at the base of the badge. Edited 14 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 14 September , 2020 Share Posted 14 September , 2020 15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: It's just a set from an auction site Jerry, and there's nothing definite to say that they're definitely Pembroke related, it's just that both badges are among groups of Pembroke's so it seemed a reasonable link to make. It would be odd if they were put there for no reason. but they could equally be related to the SWB badge, the welsh horse badge or even the modern royal mons re badge or the welsh brigade. More likely a generic welsh pow feathers badge imo until something definite surfaces the bi metal welsh regiment qwell angua collar at bottom right between the pembs collar and the denbigh badge is a very rare one, only used for a year or two by senior nco's in the late 1920's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 September , 2020 Share Posted 14 September , 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jerry B said: but they could equally be related to the SWB badge, the welsh horse badge or even the modern royal mons re badge or the welsh brigade. More likely a generic welsh pow feathers badge imo until something definite surfaces the bi metal welsh regiment qwell angua collar at bottom right between the pembs collar and the denbigh badge is a very rare one, only used for a year or two by senior nco's in the late 1920's Yes, Jerry they could be related to the other regiments that you mention, I was making my assessment on the basis of probability related to the known insignia of those units. The fact remains that the SWB, Welsh Horse and modern Mons, have no tradition of wearing a simple PoW feathers badge, without much additional adornment, so it seemed reasonable to assume them less likely. Conversely the Pembrokeshire Yeomanry do have that tradition, and the badges concerned have been positioned immediately adjacent to that regiment’s other insignia. Ergo it doesn’t seem a stretch that they’re possibly associated. Just to be clear I don’t know what the intention was of the collector who mounted the badges. I’m just positing a reasoned suggestion. As it happens it’s largely irrelevant now anyway, as I think that Jay is right that the badge in the OP’s photo(s), and the subject of this thread, looks more like the pattern worn by the Leinster’s/West York’s. It’s interesting to learn what you have indicated about the Welsh Regiment bi-metal collar badge. Edited 14 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 14 September , 2020 Share Posted 14 September , 2020 how about this form of pin back badge, a generic welsh ich dien badge for the lapel, note it has the rectangular lower scroll above the feather tips, unlike the leinsters which has a slightly curved scroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 14 September , 2020 Share Posted 14 September , 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Jerry B said: how about this form of pin back badge, a generic welsh ich dien badge for the lapel, note it has the rectangular lower scroll above the feather tips, unlike the leinsters which has a slightly curved scroll It does look very similar Jerry, but I think that the ICH DIEN scrolls are too close to the base of the feathers to be the badge seen in the subject photos. In any case I’m pretty sure that the unit would not get away with wearing a non-issue and unauthorised badge on the King’s uniform, and the two photos suggests that it wasn’t a one-off idiosyncrasy by a soldier in isolation chancing his arm (pun unintended). Edited 14 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 15 September , 2020 Share Posted 15 September , 2020 22 hours ago, Jerry B said: qwell angua Gwell Angau na Chywilydd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry B Posted 15 September , 2020 Share Posted 15 September , 2020 6 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Gwell Angau na Chywilydd are you correcting my spelling mistakes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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