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Remembered Today:

14962 Corporal John. H. Savage, Royal Field Artillery/Royal Garrison Artillery


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Hello,

I'm trying to find some details about John Savage. His MIC verifies his entitlement to a 1914 trio with clasp.

Regards

Ken Savage

 

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Hi Ken,

 

Well, his medal rolls entry says he was RFA and transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery on 20.2.1917; the 1914 Star records are headed "RFA Artificers and Details Attached to 114th Heavy Battery RGA for  duty". Hs rank is given as Bombardier. I can't see a British War & Victory Medal entry on Ancestry, but that isn't entirely unheard of - my skills are a bit iffy, ditto Ancestry's indexing. FMP may well have more.

 

Cheers, Pat.

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David Porter

472459 was actually his Labour Corps number and he appears in their rolls for the BW and V medals. His other name was Henry.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Many thanks to you all for the above clarifications. I found him in the 1911 Census as a Driver with the 103rd Battery RFA. It said that he was born in Cambridge about 1892. However I cannot find someone of that name in the GRO Birth Index for 1891 to 1893 for Cambridge or that County.

Regards

Ken

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Ivor Anderson

Assuming that is him with 103rd Battery RFA on the 1911 Census his age/ place of birth may not be accurate?

The only births registered to a John Henry Savage in England during 1891-1892 are:

1891 Q1 None registered

1891 Q2 one in Banbury District, Oxfordshire (born 3 June 1891, Hook Norton. On 1901 & 1911 Censuses at Hook Norton. On 1939 Census, d.1958?) 

               one in Driffeld District, East Riding, Yorkshire (died Q4 1903 aged 12?)

1891 Q3 one in West Derby District, Lancashire.

1891 Q4 one in Loughboro District.

1892 Q1 & Q2 None registered

1892 Q3 one in Sheffield district (living Sheffield 1901 aged 8).

1892 Q4 none registered.

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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Might he have been a son of a soldier who was overseas in the 1901 ?

I had no hits on him either.

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Ivor Anderson

John Henry Savage births registered in England 1893-1895 (still none for Cambridge):

1893 Q1 none

1893 Q2 one in Mansfield (birth 20 April 1893, bap. 25 May 1893 Pinxton, Derbyshire. Parents Henry & Julia). Died 17 August 1916, 22899, 2nd Leic Regt.

1893 Q3 & Q4 none

1894 Q1 none

1894 Q2 one in Howden (died Q2 1894 aged 0)

              one in Basford, Nottinghamshire. On 1901 & 1911 censuses as coal miner/hewer. Married Mary Walker 1916, 1939 census says b. 30-03-1894. Died 1968.

1894 Q3 & Q4 none

1895 Q1 Q2 & Q3 none

1895 Q4 one in Salford

 

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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I see that his rank was given as Pte. not Cpl. on the Labours Corps BWM & VM Roll. I presume that ranks were not transferable. Where can I find the relevant RFA 1914 star roll? His MIC mentions the award of his 14 Star.

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Ivor Anderson

As Pat Atkins said, he was a bombardier with 114 Heavy Battery RGA when he went to France on 3 October 1914: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41803_626640_11958-00356?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=04a3f15f4e053d5c065a12c817a94cd1&usePUB=true&_phsrc=JTS222&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1001378   Is he a relation? Are you sure that is him on the 1911 census in the absence of a service no.?

 

image.png.81fd3f1149feaf92d867905b7ca21cb5.png

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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I can't find his MIC on Ancestry either, grrrr... Sav, can you confirm that it gives him as 14962 Bdr John Savage RFA and as [number unknown] Pte John Savage Labour Corps?

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So, born abt 1892 would give, ordinarily, an enlistment around 1910 at age 18.

 

Looking through FMP #14962 doesn't appear to be a number that would be issued in/around 1910 - https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?_page=3&sourcecategory=armed forces %26 conflict&regiment=*artillery*&soldiernumber=1496%3f&datasetname=british army service records&sourcecountry=great britain

 

Craig

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MIC attached as requested with both service numbers listed for RFA and Labour Corps. His 1914 star with clasp trio is also pictured. I'm less certain now about the about the 1911 John Henry from Cambridge. I assumed that he would have been an old contemptible and would have been in the RFA before the war. Driver John Henry Savage aged 19 born Cambridge appeared to fit the bill. It may well be that the Banbury John Henry Savage is the man. The reason I am researching him is to see if he is in fact a family connection.

 

30850_A001373-00733.jpg

Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 11.15.53 pm.png

Screen Shot 2020-09-24 at 11.16.17 pm.png

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In the case of the Banbury John Henry Savage in the 1911 Census his occupation is described as Stockman. He was obviously experienced in handling horses hence the RFA.

 

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The 1939 Register has the Banbury John Savage  as a goods Guard with the London Midlands & NW Railway. A check of the employment records on Ancestry reveals his dates of employment and re employment more or less agree with his MIC dates 3 Oct 1914 to France and his transfer on 20 Feb 1917. He is shown as resuming duty from 10 Feb 1917. Any thoughts welcome. 32167_636897_0246-00052.jpg.759f119c50d2f55b3e8031289cb67a02.jpg

 

 

tna_r39_5730_5730a_017.jpg

Edited by Sav
restoring a sentence break
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Ivor Anderson

If it is the Banbury one there is a whole family tree on Ancestry (Father d.1910, JHS married Charlotte Salisbury 1914):

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/34494022/person/122130001515/facts?_phsrc=JTS232&_phstart=successSource

and he had a brother George (Rifleman R/15990, 10th KRRC?) KIA 28 July 1916.

 

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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David Porter
18 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

So, born abt 1892 would give, ordinarily, an enlistment around 1910 at age 18.

Looking through FMP #14962 doesn't appear to be a number that would be issued in/around 1910

 

Yes, this fact has been overlooked. Before the war this number was issued in the RFA in February 1901 and before that in 1896. It is far more likely that this John Henry Savage was born in the 1880s. A plausible alternative is that he actually enlisted on September 11, 1914 and previous experience gave him an immediate rank of Bombardier and he was shipped over to France on October 3, 1914. Something similar happened to 14963 Bombardier Albert Edward Strong and 14968 Driver John Garland who were both in their 40s.

Edited by David Porter
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Ivor Anderson

That helps a lot David. Going by those service no. issue dates of 1896 and 1901 we are looking for a JHS born 1880 (+/- 5 years)?

It might be best to look at those still living on the 1911 census and see if/where they were on the 1901 one?

A search of 1880 (+/- 5 years) on the 1911 census gives 11 JHSs: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/categories/cen_1910/?name=john+henry_savage&birth=1880&birth_x=5-0-0&location=3257.3250&name_x=1_1&priority=united-kingdom

The JHS born Q1 1875 in Norwich looks interesting (not on 1901 census?). Mother Harriett unmarried 1881 (she died 1888?), JHS in reformatory school 1891, Postman in Norwich 1911.

 

Edited by Ivor Anderson
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David Porter

Most men would get a new number from the current series on re-enlistment. This would be after their full service obligation had expired. However, I have seen a number of instances where the original number is retained. It is usually when there is a short period (less than a year) between the two terms. I'm sure there are examples where it makes no sense why the older number was retained, but they will be very rare.

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On 23/09/2020 at 02:58, Sav said:

I found him in the 1911 Census as a Driver with the 103rd Battery RFA. It said that he was born in Cambridge about 1892.

 

Hi,

 

That man on the 1911 Census of England & Wales was simply shown as John. While that doesn't rule out that he had a middle name, it doesn't mean he had one either. There are several individuals recorded on the same page with middle names, so it wasn't the norm for the individual completing the census return to just show first name.

 

On 23/09/2020 at 02:58, Sav said:

It said that he was born in Cambridge about 1892. However I cannot find someone of that name in the GRO Birth Index for 1891 to 1893 for Cambridge or that County.

 

May not have been his birthname. He could have been registered under another name and then used Savage for example, because it was his mothers' maiden name or a step-fathers name. The absence of a likely candidate on the 1901 Census of England & Wales would tend to indicate that Savage was a name adopted later on - although that is not the sole reason and other explanations are available:)

 

On 25/09/2020 at 09:23, Ivor Anderson said:

The JHS born Q1 1875 in Norwich looks interesting (not on 1901 census?). Mother Harriett unmarried 1881 (she died 1888?), JHS in reformatory school 1891, Postman in Norwich 1911.

 

Reform School then Postman with a gap in the middle would certainly seem likely to indicate some form of military service. Can't see any likely surviving service records for him in the WO96 / WO97 Series. Unfortunately he is recorded as a boarder on the 1911 Census, so tracking him down manually on the 1918 Absent Voter List for Norwich when the County Archive re-opens could well be a bit of a marathon task - he may not even have registered to vote.

 

May be a co-incidence but a John H Savage married an Emma Clements in the Norwich District in Q2 1917. If it is him, the marriage certificate would show as a minimum Rank and Regiment \ Corps, and sometimes much more. Doesn't appear to be any children, (a 1934 registration in the Aylsham District of Norfolk seems a bit unlikely). On the 1939 Register there is a widower, John H. Savage, born 10th February 1875, who was recorded as the sole occupant of 102 Waterloo Road, Norwich. He was still working as a General Labourer. The death of a John H. Savage, aged 75, was recorded in the Norwich District in Q2 1950. No obvious Civil Probate.

 

Again, may just be a co-incidence but the Queens South Africa Medal Roll and the King's South Africa Medal Roll has a J.H. Savage who served with the 19th Battery, Royal Field Artillery.

I can see it on the Anglo-Boer site https://www.angloboerwar.com/name-search

but can't track the same individual down on FindMyPast or Genes Reunited. Hopefully someone with access to Ancestry might have better luck.

 

Hope that's not too many red herrings,

 

Peter

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