Sav Posted 9 September , 2020 Share Posted 9 September , 2020 Hello, I'm trying to find some details about John Savage. His MIC verifies his entitlement to a 1914 trio with clasp. Regards Ken Savage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 9 September , 2020 Share Posted 9 September , 2020 Hi Ken, Well, his medal rolls entry says he was RFA and transferred to the Royal Garrison Artillery on 20.2.1917; the 1914 Star records are headed "RFA Artificers and Details Attached to 114th Heavy Battery RGA for duty". Hs rank is given as Bombardier. I can't see a British War & Victory Medal entry on Ancestry, but that isn't entirely unheard of - my skills are a bit iffy, ditto Ancestry's indexing. FMP may well have more. Cheers, Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTSCF Fareham Posted 9 September , 2020 Share Posted 9 September , 2020 Courtesy of Forces War Records Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 9 September , 2020 Share Posted 9 September , 2020 472459 was actually his Labour Corps number and he appears in their rolls for the BW and V medals. His other name was Henry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 23 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 September , 2020 Many thanks to you all for the above clarifications. I found him in the 1911 Census as a Driver with the 103rd Battery RFA. It said that he was born in Cambridge about 1892. However I cannot find someone of that name in the GRO Birth Index for 1891 to 1893 for Cambridge or that County. Regards Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 23 September , 2020 Share Posted 23 September , 2020 (edited) Assuming that is him with 103rd Battery RFA on the 1911 Census his age/ place of birth may not be accurate? The only births registered to a John Henry Savage in England during 1891-1892 are: 1891 Q1 None registered 1891 Q2 one in Banbury District, Oxfordshire (born 3 June 1891, Hook Norton. On 1901 & 1911 Censuses at Hook Norton. On 1939 Census, d.1958?) one in Driffeld District, East Riding, Yorkshire (died Q4 1903 aged 12?) 1891 Q3 one in West Derby District, Lancashire. 1891 Q4 one in Loughboro District. 1892 Q1 & Q2 None registered 1892 Q3 one in Sheffield district (living Sheffield 1901 aged 8). 1892 Q4 none registered. Edited 23 September , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 23 September , 2020 Share Posted 23 September , 2020 Might he have been a son of a soldier who was overseas in the 1901 ? I had no hits on him either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 23 September , 2020 Share Posted 23 September , 2020 Maybe he lied about his name/age on enlistment, and had to stick with it on the 1911 census? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 23 September , 2020 Share Posted 23 September , 2020 (edited) John Henry Savage births registered in England 1893-1895 (still none for Cambridge): 1893 Q1 none 1893 Q2 one in Mansfield (birth 20 April 1893, bap. 25 May 1893 Pinxton, Derbyshire. Parents Henry & Julia). Died 17 August 1916, 22899, 2nd Leic Regt. 1893 Q3 & Q4 none 1894 Q1 none 1894 Q2 one in Howden (died Q2 1894 aged 0) one in Basford, Nottinghamshire. On 1901 & 1911 censuses as coal miner/hewer. Married Mary Walker 1916, 1939 census says b. 30-03-1894. Died 1968. 1894 Q3 & Q4 none 1895 Q1 Q2 & Q3 none 1895 Q4 one in Salford Edited 25 September , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Additional Information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 24 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2020 I see that his rank was given as Pte. not Cpl. on the Labours Corps BWM & VM Roll. I presume that ranks were not transferable. Where can I find the relevant RFA 1914 star roll? His MIC mentions the award of his 14 Star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 24 September , 2020 Share Posted 24 September , 2020 (edited) As Pat Atkins said, he was a bombardier with 114 Heavy Battery RGA when he went to France on 3 October 1914: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/5119/images/41803_626640_11958-00356?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=04a3f15f4e053d5c065a12c817a94cd1&usePUB=true&_phsrc=JTS222&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1001378 Is he a relation? Are you sure that is him on the 1911 census in the absence of a service no.? Edited 24 September , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Additional Information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Atkins Posted 24 September , 2020 Share Posted 24 September , 2020 I can't find his MIC on Ancestry either, grrrr... Sav, can you confirm that it gives him as 14962 Bdr John Savage RFA and as [number unknown] Pte John Savage Labour Corps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 24 September , 2020 Share Posted 24 September , 2020 So, born abt 1892 would give, ordinarily, an enlistment around 1910 at age 18. Looking through FMP #14962 doesn't appear to be a number that would be issued in/around 1910 - https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?_page=3&sourcecategory=armed forces %26 conflict®iment=*artillery*&soldiernumber=1496%3f&datasetname=british army service records&sourcecountry=great britain Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 24 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2020 MIC attached as requested with both service numbers listed for RFA and Labour Corps. His 1914 star with clasp trio is also pictured. I'm less certain now about the about the 1911 John Henry from Cambridge. I assumed that he would have been an old contemptible and would have been in the RFA before the war. Driver John Henry Savage aged 19 born Cambridge appeared to fit the bill. It may well be that the Banbury John Henry Savage is the man. The reason I am researching him is to see if he is in fact a family connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 24 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2020 No 472459 Pte J H Savage Labour Corps/ No 14962 Cpl J H Savage RFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 24 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2020 In the case of the Banbury John Henry Savage in the 1911 Census his occupation is described as Stockman. He was obviously experienced in handling horses hence the RFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 24 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2020 (edited) The 1939 Register has the Banbury John Savage as a goods Guard with the London Midlands & NW Railway. A check of the employment records on Ancestry reveals his dates of employment and re employment more or less agree with his MIC dates 3 Oct 1914 to France and his transfer on 20 Feb 1917. He is shown as resuming duty from 10 Feb 1917. Any thoughts welcome. Edited 24 September , 2020 by Sav restoring a sentence break Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 24 September , 2020 Share Posted 24 September , 2020 (edited) If it is the Banbury one there is a whole family tree on Ancestry (Father d.1910, JHS married Charlotte Salisbury 1914): https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/34494022/person/122130001515/facts?_phsrc=JTS232&_phstart=successSource and he had a brother George (Rifleman R/15990, 10th KRRC?) KIA 28 July 1916. Edited 24 September , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 24 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2020 Yes I found that Ivor. I've sent an email and am hoping for a reply. Regards Sav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 25 September , 2020 Share Posted 25 September , 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: So, born abt 1892 would give, ordinarily, an enlistment around 1910 at age 18. Looking through FMP #14962 doesn't appear to be a number that would be issued in/around 1910 Yes, this fact has been overlooked. Before the war this number was issued in the RFA in February 1901 and before that in 1896. It is far more likely that this John Henry Savage was born in the 1880s. A plausible alternative is that he actually enlisted on September 11, 1914 and previous experience gave him an immediate rank of Bombardier and he was shipped over to France on October 3, 1914. Something similar happened to 14963 Bombardier Albert Edward Strong and 14968 Driver John Garland who were both in their 40s. Edited 25 September , 2020 by David Porter Additional Information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Anderson Posted 25 September , 2020 Share Posted 25 September , 2020 (edited) That helps a lot David. Going by those service no. issue dates of 1896 and 1901 we are looking for a JHS born 1880 (+/- 5 years)? It might be best to look at those still living on the 1911 census and see if/where they were on the 1901 one? A search of 1880 (+/- 5 years) on the 1911 census gives 11 JHSs: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/categories/cen_1910/?name=john+henry_savage&birth=1880&birth_x=5-0-0&location=3257.3250&name_x=1_1&priority=united-kingdom The JHS born Q1 1875 in Norwich looks interesting (not on 1901 census?). Mother Harriett unmarried 1881 (she died 1888?), JHS in reformatory school 1891, Postman in Norwich 1911. Edited 25 September , 2020 by Ivor Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 26 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 26 September , 2020 Does a soldier retain his original number on re enlistment or must his service be continuous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 27 September , 2020 Share Posted 27 September , 2020 Most men would get a new number from the current series on re-enlistment. This would be after their full service obligation had expired. However, I have seen a number of instances where the original number is retained. It is usually when there is a short period (less than a year) between the two terms. I'm sure there are examples where it makes no sense why the older number was retained, but they will be very rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sav Posted 27 September , 2020 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2020 Thanks David this probably means that the Norfolk postman is not our man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 27 September , 2020 Share Posted 27 September , 2020 On 23/09/2020 at 02:58, Sav said: I found him in the 1911 Census as a Driver with the 103rd Battery RFA. It said that he was born in Cambridge about 1892. Hi, That man on the 1911 Census of England & Wales was simply shown as John. While that doesn't rule out that he had a middle name, it doesn't mean he had one either. There are several individuals recorded on the same page with middle names, so it wasn't the norm for the individual completing the census return to just show first name. On 23/09/2020 at 02:58, Sav said: It said that he was born in Cambridge about 1892. However I cannot find someone of that name in the GRO Birth Index for 1891 to 1893 for Cambridge or that County. May not have been his birthname. He could have been registered under another name and then used Savage for example, because it was his mothers' maiden name or a step-fathers name. The absence of a likely candidate on the 1901 Census of England & Wales would tend to indicate that Savage was a name adopted later on - although that is not the sole reason and other explanations are available On 25/09/2020 at 09:23, Ivor Anderson said: The JHS born Q1 1875 in Norwich looks interesting (not on 1901 census?). Mother Harriett unmarried 1881 (she died 1888?), JHS in reformatory school 1891, Postman in Norwich 1911. Reform School then Postman with a gap in the middle would certainly seem likely to indicate some form of military service. Can't see any likely surviving service records for him in the WO96 / WO97 Series. Unfortunately he is recorded as a boarder on the 1911 Census, so tracking him down manually on the 1918 Absent Voter List for Norwich when the County Archive re-opens could well be a bit of a marathon task - he may not even have registered to vote. May be a co-incidence but a John H Savage married an Emma Clements in the Norwich District in Q2 1917. If it is him, the marriage certificate would show as a minimum Rank and Regiment \ Corps, and sometimes much more. Doesn't appear to be any children, (a 1934 registration in the Aylsham District of Norfolk seems a bit unlikely). On the 1939 Register there is a widower, John H. Savage, born 10th February 1875, who was recorded as the sole occupant of 102 Waterloo Road, Norwich. He was still working as a General Labourer. The death of a John H. Savage, aged 75, was recorded in the Norwich District in Q2 1950. No obvious Civil Probate. Again, may just be a co-incidence but the Queens South Africa Medal Roll and the King's South Africa Medal Roll has a J.H. Savage who served with the 19th Battery, Royal Field Artillery. I can see it on the Anglo-Boer site https://www.angloboerwar.com/name-search but can't track the same individual down on FindMyPast or Genes Reunited. Hopefully someone with access to Ancestry might have better luck. Hope that's not too many red herrings, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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