1/5 Battalion Gurkha Rifles, Anzac, October 1915, Beach party

[Guest]

Hi all,

 

I'm currently researching my grandfather-in-law's service at Anzac, Gallipoli (26th Bn, AIF).  

 

One of his comrades (in a personal diary) mentioned that the "Gurkhas are living among us" on 9 October 1915.  I believe he was referring to the 1/5 Battalion Gurkha Rifles, and its war diary entry for 8 October 1915 had the following:

 

4th DC proceeded to Anzac as Beach party.

 

Does anyone in the forum know what the acronym "DC" stands for?  Does it refer to a Company or platoon?  

 

And finally, does anyone know where this 4th DC would have been quartered at Anzac?  My gut feel is that they were probably at Reserve Gully, or perhaps Hell Spit.  The war diary of the unit says they left the beach party and rejoined their battalion on 19 October 1915.

 

Regards,

 

Jay.

[Acknown]

A possibility is Detachment Commander.

Acknown

Edit: I note that the '4th DC' rejoined the battalion on 19 Oct, so someone or some element of the 1/5th.

Edited 7 September , 2020 by Acknown

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Acknown said:

A possibility is Detachment Commander.

 

Thanks Acknown.  

 

Would the Detachment Commander be the equivalent of a Lieutenant or a Captain? 

 

I agree that it was an element of the 1/5 Bn, but I'm not sure if it was a platoon or a much larger body of men.  

[Acknown]

I think a detachment could be any size with a commander of appropriate rank. However, the 26th Battalion WD for late Sep 15 mentions a beach party detachment a number of times. It seems to have been of a varying size. The 7th Brigade WD also mentions it.

I've tried to find the WD of the higher formation (a brigade within ANZAC?) of the 1/5th to see if it mentions a beach party around about then, but failed to identify which their brigade was.

Acknown

[Guest]

Hi Acknown,

 

The 1/5 Battalion Gurkha Rifles were initially attached to the 29th Indian Infantry Brigade before their Gallipoli / Anzac trip.  

 

However, I have not seen this Bde mentioned in the NZ&A Divisional Orders in either September / October 1915, unless they were attached to the 29th (British) Brigade, which were attached to the NZ&A for the period in question.  

 

Most of the 1/4, 1/5 and 1/6 Battalion Gurkha Rifles appear to be entrenched north of the Australian lines.   I'm guessing a request was made to the Gurkha's for additional men to help with the beach fatigue parties, since a lot of the Aussies were being shipped off the Peninsula due to sickness.

 

The location of the 1/5 Bn within the Anzac sector will provide the clue I need to determine where my grandfather-in-law had his dugout during October 1915, since he didn't appear to be at Taylor's Hollow with the majority of his Bn.

 

I'll try and locate a 29th IIB or 29th British Bde WD on TNA / Ancestry.

 

Regards,

 

Jay.

Edited 8 September , 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Acknown said:

I've tried to find the WD of the higher formation (a brigade within ANZAC?) of the 1/5th to see if it mentions a beach party around about then, but failed to identify which their brigade was.

 

I found the WD of the 29th Indian Inf Bde for Sep/Oct 1915 (using the TNA code 4272 in the ancestry keyword field).  Nothing mentioned about the beach party.  Back to the drawing board...

 

However, in the August WD of the 29th IIB, dated 4th August, it mentions that the Bde was to come under the command of Godley's NZ&A Division.  It looks like General Cox was in charge of the Bde and they were bivouacked in Reserve Gully at Anzac.  After the August battles, they were near the Hill 60 / Demakjalik Bair sector.  

[Old Owl]

Not certain in this instance but DC in the Indian Army usually stands for 'Double Company'.

 

Hope this helps,  Robert

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Old Owl said:

Not certain in this instance but DC in the Indian Army usually stands for 'Double Company'.

 

Hi Robert,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I'm assuming that DC is a term that was adopted by the Indian Army after 1947?

 

If not, and if was used during WW1, how many men would have been allotted to a "Double Company"?

 

Regards,

 

Jay.

Edited 8 September , 2020 by Guest

[Acknown]

'Double Company' makes more sense. The '2 Capts, 2 Subs and 200 OR' that the 26th Battalion provided for the Beach Commandant on 30 Sep 15 is about company sized in British Army terms, but the Indian Army number may be different. Of course, 200 men in two companies depleted by casualties also makes sense.

On 04 Oct, the 1/5th Gurkhas were relieved by 1/6th and went into reserve in 19th Avenue and Sutton Lane (1/5th's WD on Ancestry). That's where they were until 20 Oct when they relieved 14th Sikhs 'in the line'. The 14th Sikhs WD (WO 95/4272) states the position to be 'Kabak Kuyu', near Hill 60. The 14th relieved them in turn on 04 Nov.

Acknown

Edited 8 September , 2020 by Acknown

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Acknown said:

'Double Company' makes more sense. The '2 Capts, 2 Subs and 200 OR' that the 26th Battalion provided for the Beach Commandant on 30 Sep 15 is about two-company sized.

 

Hi Acknown,

 

Thanks for putting in the man hours on this.

 

I've reviewed the 26th Bn WD and my understanding of 1st AIF Coys was that it comprised 200-250 men per Coy (about 50-60 per platoon, 4 platoons per Coy, A-D). 

 

My research indicates that two platoons from C and D Coys of the 26th Bn (based on letters / personal diaries) under Captains Tyrell and Hewitt were sent to the Beach to act as fatigue parties at the end of Sep 1915, after their road making work at the Deres had been completed.  The work at the beach during October 1915 included unloading goods from the lighters/ships, transporting water tanks up the steep hills/gullies, transporting timber to the front lines to be used to create winter quarters etc, so pretty much the boring and unglamorous role.   You probably know that the 26th Bn was the divisional reserve battalion from 12 September to 5 November 1915. 

 

You mentioned that the 1 / 5 Bn GR were in reserve at 19th Avenue and Sutton Lane.  This would probably have been the bulk of the Bn, with a detachment sent to Anzac Cove to help the Aussies.  It is the "4th DC" that caught my attention, along with the comment "the Gurkha's are living among us".  

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what DC stands for.  I only want to confirm my suspicion that the 1/ 5 Bn detachment were also at Reserve Gully.  I guess we'll never know, unless someone has written about the exploits of the 1 / 5 Bn GF in WW1.  Does such a book exist?

 

Regards

 

Jay.

Edited 8 September , 2020 by Guest

[Acknown]

Jay,

Glad to help - I got interested! I amended my last post to 'one company' rather than two after checking my facts. 

Good luck.

Acknown

[Old Owl]

Hi Jay,

 

The term 'Double Company' within the Indian Army was certainly in use during the early part of WW1 and as such this would fit with the Gallipoli campaign.  I think that the Indian Army then dropped their 8 Company structure and moved to the 4 Company structure of their British counterparts, this during 1916 and onwards.

 

I am almost 100% certain that D.C. in your context will be 'Double Company'--in the Army List, some officers of the Indian Army are listed as Double Company Officers.

 

Although I am not certain, I would assume that an Indian Army Double Company would consist of the same number of Officers, Ncos and other ranks as a single company of a British unit.

 

Regards,  Robert

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Old Owl said:

 

The term 'Double Company' within the Indian Army was certainly in use during the early part of WW1 and as such this would fit with the Gallipoli campaign.  I think that the Indian Army then dropped their 8 Company structure and moved to the 4 Company structure of their British counterparts, this during 1916 and onwards.

 

I am almost 100% certain that D.C. in your context will be 'Double Company'--in the Army List, some officers of the Indian Army are listed as Double Company Officers.

 

Although I am not certain, I would assume that an Indian Army Double Company would consist of the same number of Officers, Ncos and other ranks as a single company of a British unit.

Thanks for the reply Robert.  I suspect the Indian Army adopted the 4 Coy model from the British Army at the same time as the AIF ie early 1915.  

[FROGSMILE]

On 08/09/2020 at 19:16, Old Owl said:

Hi Jay,

 

The term 'Double Company' within the Indian Army was certainly in use during the early part of WW1 and as such this would fit with the Gallipoli campaign.  I think that the Indian Army then dropped their 8 Company structure and moved to the 4 Company structure of their British counterparts, this during 1916 and onwards.

 

I am almost 100% certain that D.C. in your context will be 'Double Company'--in the Army List, some officers of the Indian Army are listed as Double Company Officers.

 

Although I am not certain, I would assume that an Indian Army Double Company would consist of the same number of Officers, Ncos and other ranks as a single company of a British unit.

 

Regards,  Robert

Totally agree with all that Robert, I was just about to type the same thing when I saw your excellent explanation.  I too have no doubt that it refers to double-company, an arrangement that had been a tactical option for quite a number of years.  All that the 1915-16 change did is make it permanent and at the same time create CHM and CQMH from the hitherto Colour Havildars.

Edited 10 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

Thanks for all your replies.   I now turn to the second part of my initial post, and to paraphrase King Henry II's alleged request "Will no one rid me of this troublesome question?":

 

does anyone know where this 4th DC would have been quartered at Anzac?  My gut feel is that they were probably at Reserve Gully, or perhaps Hell Spit in October 1915. 

 

And to paraphrase Shakespeare's King Richard III, "An answer! An answer!  My kingdom for an answer!"    I'm guessing no book was ever written about the exploits of the 1 / 5th Bn GF at Gallipoli...  

 

Ciao.