Researching.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

These are the Joneses of Pentraeth on the Spring 1918 Anglesey AVL:

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

The 2/2nd battalion RWF doesn’t make any sense and seems to be an error.

Edited 5 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 2/2nd battalion RWF doesn’t make any sense and seems to be an error.

Yes it may well be.

His service number is also incorrect, being a digit short.

It is 268059 on his MIC, which also shows a previous (TF?) number of 5938, as well as his DLI number of 245978

Link

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Yes it may well be.

His service number is also incorrect, being a digit short.

It is 268059 on his MIC, which also shows a previous (TF?) number of 5938, as well as his DLI number of 245978

Link

It’s very odd as only the TF had battalion ‘fractions’ indicating second and third line, etc.  There were previous to 1908 volunteer battalions, as you know know, under the numbering system that prevailed at the time and there was a 2nd VB, but even that did not have a duplicate of itself.  The very specific ‘C Company’ prefix might hold a clue, but I’ve no idea what it’s meant to relate to.

Edited 5 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

This I assume is Hugh's MIC.

Link

Does it read 22970 or 22971 ?

I wonder what the rolls say?

(No mention of death or demob...)

Edited 5 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 2/2nd battalion RWF doesn’t make any sense and seems to be an error.

His service record says 2/6.

His dates are:

Attested 15/03/1915. Deganwy. Age 19 , Farm labourer.

Joined19th Bn. at Deganwy 15/04/1915

To BEF, France 01/06/16

Posted Depot 17/11/1916

RWF 2/6 posted  December 1916.

3rd Bn. 17/07/1917

'Absent' 26/03/1918 to 03/04/1918

Infantry Base Depot 'C' 09/04/1918

2nd RWF 09/04/1918

16th RWF date unclear

Transferred DLI. 19/04/1918

Missing France 27/05/1918

Posted Depot 29/01/1919

Discharged  Class Z  01/05/1919

BEF France 01/06/1916 - 16/11/1916 & 09/04/1918 - 24?/01/1919

 

Long charge sheet.

Pension claim 1923, TB Spine. Non attributable. (Address, Bryngoleu, Talwrn).

Died 25/02/1924 of same.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent run down Dai, thank you.  It just goes to show what can be obtained from a surviving service record.  The depleted 2nd Battalion was brought up to strength by the reduced to cadre 15th Battalion around that time and I wonder if the opportunity was then taken to move Hugh Jones on because of his poor disciplinary record.  As regulars the 2nd Battalion would I think have done that.

Edited 5 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Miss Jones]

3 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

245978 DLI and 28731 RWF are the regiments and service numbers quoted on the service record on the Ancestry page.

 

 

Thanks. I can't wait to find out more. I've got this by not noticed where it says Welsh fusiliers then crossed out. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I wonder if the opportunity was then taken to move Hugh Jones on because of his poor disciplinary record.  

You meant Ellis of course.

[Miss Jones]

3 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Croeso,

 

Edit;

Either the AVL (transcribed by myself), or CWGC or that Ancestry tree is wrong.

I have Hugh Jones, Bragdy on the 1918 AVL (presumably alive) as 22971 Pte., 4th Bn., S.W.B.

The tree has him dying in 1916 as 36833 in Machine Gun Corps.

That man according to CWGC was the " Son of Jane E. Jones, of 19, Augusta Place, Port Dinorwic, Carnarvonshire, and the late Hugh Jones."

 

Edit Edit,

Hugh Jones does not appear on the Pentraeth War Memorial

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Anglesey/Pentraeth.html

No his mother was Agnes Jones. Ellis died of TB of the spine 1924. 

[corisande]

3 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Either the AVL (transcribed by myself), or CWGC or that Ancestry tree is wrong.

I have Hugh Jones, Bragdy on the 1918 AVL (presumably alive) as 22971 Pte., 4th Bn., S.W.B.

The tree has him dying in 1916 as 36833 in Machine Gun Corps.

That man according to CWGC was the " Son of Jane E. Jones, of 19, Augusta Place, Port Dinorwic, Carnarvonshire, and the late Hugh Jones."

 

Another explanation, and I think the correct one, is that both the above are correct. There were two Hugh Jones, sons of Hugh

 

As I understand it Hugh who died in 1916 (in fact he was Hugh Emrys) and Ellis were brothers. I presume the sons of the Married Hugh, who had a wife Agnes. But from CWGC - click - the mother of Hugh Emrys (and by supposition also of Ellis) was Son of Jane E. Jones, of 19, Augusta Place, Port Dinorwic, Carnarvonshire, and the late Hugh Jones. In addition Soldiers Effects gives Hugh Emrys' mother as Jane Ellen

 

Hugh and Agnes had a son called Hugh as well, of whom Agnes was the mother. And he is the one in the AVL and who would have lived with Hugh & Agnes. You would not expect the illegitimate Hugh to be living there

Edited 5 September , 2020 by corisande

[Miss Jones]

Dai Bach, 

Diolch. That's s great run down, in layman's terms for thickos like me 

Everyone else, thanks so much for the wonderful help. 

I've pages of his disciplinary fines (,if that's the right term) I can't seem to upload them to show you.

I'm wondering if he was mentally suffering. My nain was a wonderful woman. I can't imagine anybody wanting to hurt her. His 2nd son was born just before he married his wife.  Seemed to have gotten around a bit!! I wonder how many more there are, not to mention I have DNA matches in France! 

[corisande]

Son of Jane E. Jones, of 19, Augusta Place, Port Dinorwic, Carnarvonshire, and the late Hugh Jones. In addition Soldiers Effects gives Hugh Emrys' mother as Jane Ellen

 

Ok this shows up the problems of Ancestry Trees. The tree referred to earlier in this thread

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/120620340/person/120195583872/facts

Is in fact showing the wrong death. I found Mrs Jane E Jones living at 19 Augusta Place, Port Dinorwic in 1911 census. And she is nothing to do with the family we are researching. I think that the owner of the dead Hugh who was (perhaps) KIA , has hit on the wrong man

 

If in fact Hugh was killed in WW1, then it would be advantageous to find his correct death which may have family details

 

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

You meant Ellis of course.

I’m not sure Dai and am getting confused by the number of Jones’s.  I had originally written Ellis, but then changed it after reading earlier posts.  I’m too used to Jones 22, 36 and 417.  It was so much simpler....

 

P.S.  Yes, I meant Ellis, I should have stuck with my original version 

Edited 5 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Miss Jones]

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m not sure Dai and am getting confused by the number of Jones’s.  I had originally written Ellis, but then changed it after reading earlier posts.  I’m too used to Jones 22, 36 and 417.  It was so much simpler....

 

P.S.  Yes, I meant Ellis, I should have stuck with my original version 

You should try being me, researching my family tree....oh lord! Jones, Roberts, Hughes , all going by the name of Jane, Owen, William Mary.....utter nightmare! 

[Miss Jones]

29 minutes ago, corisande said:

Son of Jane E. Jones, of 19, Augusta Place, Port Dinorwic, Carnarvonshire, and the late Hugh Jones. In addition Soldiers Effects gives Hugh Emrys' mother as Jane Ellen

 

Ok this shows up the problems of Ancestry Trees. The tree referred to earlier in this thread

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/120620340/person/120195583872/facts

Is in fact showing the wrong death. I found Mrs Jane E Jones living at 19 Augusta Place, Port Dinorwic in 1911 census. And she is nothing to do with the family we are researching. I think that the owner of the dead Hugh who was (perhaps) KIA , has hit on the wrong man

 

If in fact Hugh was killed in WW1, then it would be advantageous to find his correct death which may have family details

 

This is not my Ellis family. I have his family's census , I know exactly where they lived. It wasn't here. Thanks anyway. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

54 minutes ago, corisande said:

Another explanation, and I think the correct one, is that both the above are correct. There were two Hugh Jones, sons of Hugh

I considered this but it didn't immediately convince me.

 

In 1911,

Ellis Jones is aged 12 at Bragdy, Pentraeth, with his brother Hugh aged 13, his father Hugh aged 49, (so born about 1862 in Bangor), and mother Agnes, aged 37, and others.

Hugh and Agnes had been married 15 years and had had 11 children, of whom 9 were still alive.

Hugh Emrys Jones is aged 14 living with his widowed mother, Jane Ellen, in Port Dinorwic.

 

In 1901,

Hugh Emrys Jones is living in Port Dinorwic with his father Hugh Jones, a sailor, aged 34, (so born about 1867, in Bangor) and mother Jane E. aged 35.

Ellis Jones, his brother Hugh, and mother are living in Llanallgo, Anglesey. OK. The father isn't there, but I haven't searched too deeply for him.

 

If the answers to all the censuses are truthful and correct then Hugh Jones  the 49 year old groom born in Bangor in about 1862, can't be the same man as the 34 year old sailor born in Bangor about 5 years later.

 

But I'm guessing that DNA shows otherwise???

[headgardener]

Btw, can't help noticing on the 1st page of the attestation doc underneath "19th RWF" it appears to say "Welsh Army" - what's that all about?

[corisande]

8 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

But I'm guessing that DNA shows otherwise???

 

Yes, with the plurality of Hugh Jones, the only way I think we can make progress is if all the facts are available. It is fair enough that the OP does not want to make then available, but without them I would be surprised that we could get much further

 

As far as I can see, Ellis' brother Hugh survived the war and did not die, as has been suggested in earlier posts. We have his correct service no in South Wales Borderers, and his MIC. The CWGC site does not show a death for Hugh with that service no

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Reference to Hugh and Ellis joining up in 1915 which is self explanatory.

From 'Y Llan' at Welsh Newspapers Online.

 

Basically says blah blah RWF Bantam battalion, blah blah Deganwy.

But interestingly that their elder brother was a prisoner of war in Germany since the previous September:

[FROGSMILE]

35 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Btw, can't help noticing on the 1st page of the attestation doc underneath "19th RWF" it appears to say "Welsh Army" - what's that all about?

It relates to an intent, much supported by the Prime Minister Lloyd George, to form a ‘Welsh Army Corps’ formed entirely from Welsh units of all arms. Much ambitious thought was given to it at the time, with the Welsh language playing a part, an effort to create a uniquely coloured uniform (a shade of grey I think) paid for by Welsh business interests, and a focused recruiting scheme was launched accordingly.  I would liken it to a bid for Welsh nationhood (think an early expression of devolution), rather like Gallipoli became a catalyst for similar emotions in connection with Australia (especially) and New Zealand.  Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons (not least that support from the war department was luke warm) and the necessary funding did not materialise, it ended up becoming purely a vehicle for recruiting Welshmen to the war effort on a greater scale than might otherwise have been achieved.  A number of all-Welsh brigades were formed at first and second line, but never enough to create a sustainable Welsh Corps.  All the Welsh regiments benefited, but the RWF and Welsh regiment most of all.  19th RWF was one of these units.

Edited 5 September , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

32 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Btw, can't help noticing on the 1st page of the attestation doc underneath "19th RWF" it appears to say "Welsh Army" - what's that all about?

Welsh Army Corps.

Dreamt up by L-G to try to encourage recruitment in Wales.

 He thought he could assemble a Corps like the ANZAC or Canadian Corps.

They would have their own version of khaki, a dark grey  colour called 'Brethyn Llwyd', but it was difficult to manufacture the colour consistently and was too expensive to produce.

Various samples were produced by different manufacturers in a range of Greys:

 

Edited 5 September , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[headgardener]

Thank you both for the explanation! Very interesting. 

[RussT]

Couple of pension cards (courtesy FOLD3) - not sure they add much except stating date of death as 25/02/1924 and providing his wife's name (Lavinia) and address.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

[Miss Jones]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Reference to Hugh and Ellis joining up in 1915 which is self explanatory.

From 'Y Llan' at Welsh Newspapers Online.

 

Basically says blah blah RWF Bantam battalion, blah blah Deganwy.

But interestingly that their elder brother was a prisoner of war in Germany since the previous September:

Awful. Hugh was killed in action. Terrible times for these boys. For their families also. Diolch.