Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Photos of two different soldiers in exactly the same place - what sort of coincidence?


Kiwi47

Recommended Posts

Hi All,

The soldier in the first photo is my Grandfather, Pte David Craig Black, 202146, Black Watch but in the uniform of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders (assumed to have been his regiment of enlistment prior to seeing active service with the 4/5 Black Watch).

I had no idea where the photo was taken but always thought it to be in the United Kingdom - date unknown.

 

DCBlackAandSHighlanders.jpeg.78f58eb87042856a9e557e6ce37eb667.jpeg

 

 

You can imagine my surprise when I recently saw the following photo on Pinterest that had obviously been taken in exactly the same location.

 

FEBrownRepair.jpeg.85fb4190ac5f1a52789dbe1303911ed2.jpeg

 

I made contact with the Pinterest contributor and discovered this second photo is of Pte (Francis) Edward Brown 5610, S/40749, Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders. According to his Grandson the photo was taken in the back garden of Edward's parent's house at 2 South Street, Stanstead Abbotts, Hertfordshire - date unknown.

 

So, can I assume David and Edward were friends and had their photos taken at the same time? The foliage would suggest a similar time of year if not the same day. Or, possibly, David was billeted at Edward's parent's house?

 

Any other ideas/comments/suggestions welcome.

 

I would also be more than curious to know if anyone else has a photo of a soldier taken in this spot!

 

Many thanks

Angus

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That’s a great one! Hopefully you will get responses soon but I guess there is no family connection perhaps through their mothers considering the different surnames. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could be this person on ancestry - but I just saw something about a gardener but can’t find it now perhaps would explain the nicely established garden!

FCE566F7-7AA7-4794-AC7F-2869ABF1B47A.png.f2569f47a9029c3a43d73f87782b60f7.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Both soldiers are wearing Territorial Force shoulder titles and the A&SH accoutrements of sporran, spats and shoes indicates a photo between 1914-15, presumably during pre-embarkation training.  The medal roll (rather than index card) might well indicate which battalion of the A&SH Private Black served with.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was Pte Black from Govern Lanarkshire? Mother Margaret McColl? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frogsmile - unfortunately nothing on the medal roll about service with A&SH. I have a reasonable amount of information on both men, in regards to war service, but was hoping there may be some clues as to why they have both been photographed in the same place.

 

Alison - David Craig Black's Mother (my Great-Grandmother) was Janet (Jessie) Craig married to Donald Black. Margaret McColl was David's paternal Grandmother.

 

Thanks,

Angus

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Kiwi47 said:

Frogsmile - unfortunately nothing on the medal roll about service with A&SH. I have a reasonable amount of information on both men, in regards to war service, but was hoping there may be some clues as to why they have both been photographed in the same place.

 

Alison - David Craig Black's Mother (my Great-Grandmother) was Janet (Jessie) Craig married to Donald Black. Margaret McColl was David's paternal Grandmother.

 

Thanks,

Angus

 

 


If there’s no mention of A&SH then he left them before going overseas Angus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The younger soldier is not wearing the Scottish-style tunic with cutaway front to show the sporran, and indeed is not wearing a sporran at all. I think that it is possible that the second photo was taken at the home of a family member or friend, and that perhaps it was taken in deliberate imitation of the first, at a later date.

 

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Frogsmile,

Yes, a little presumption and a lot of hard evidence puts him with the 4/5 Black Watch Oct '16, wounded 26/09/17, recovery in the UK (Bangour Hospital) and the remainder of the war in the Labour Corp (644291) at Blairgowrie.

 

This photo (a little enhanced) taken in 1918 according to family lore.

 

DCBlackRoyalHighlanders.jpeg.91f2eba3ae72f05504e1ce97aa7f581b.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

The younger soldier is not wearing the Scottish-style tunic with cutaway front to show the sporran, and indeed is not wearing a sporran at all. I think that it is possible that the second photo was taken at the home of a family member or friend, and that perhaps it was taken in deliberate imitation of the first, at a later date.

 

Ron


Yes, I was thinking along similar lines Ron.  There’s no real evidence beyond the background that the photos were taken at the same time.  You make a good point.  It seems more likely to have been a regularly allocated billet to me.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Kiwi47 said:

Frogsmile,

Yes, a little presumption and a lot of hard evidence puts him with the 4/5 Black Watch Oct '16, wounded 26/09/17, recovery in the UK (Bangour Hospital) and the remainder of the war in the Labour Corp (644291) at Blairgowrie.

 

This photo (a little enhanced) taken in 1918 according to family lore.

 

DCBlackRoyalHighlanders.jpeg.91f2eba3ae72f05504e1ce97aa7f581b.jpeg


The photo could be 1918 I suppose if taken at home and assuming that he did not qualify for the 1914-15 star.  Do you know when he was appointed Lance Corporal?  The odd aspect is that if he was Labour Corps then he would not be wearing full Black Watch uniform as he is in the photo.  Perhaps it was taken after his recovery and just before he was medically boarded and transferred to the Labour Corps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s no real evidence beyond the background that the photos were taken at the same time.

 

I don't think they were taken at the same time

 

a) The garden steps are the same ..but

 

b) there is a lot of time between the photos if you look at the fig tree to their left. It seems  much older in the second photo

 

c) the wall to the right of the two men has quite different vegetation. Lots in the first photo and none in the second

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There seems to be two bits of gravel on the bottom step in both pictures. In a garden that seems to be thought out and well tended I can't imagine it was long until the gardener kicked them back onto the path. Leads me to think the pictures were taken at the same point. Forgive my amateurish way of looking at it! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

I don't think they were taken at the same time

 

a) The garden steps are the same ..but

 

b) there is a lot of time between the photos if you look at the fig tree to their left. It seems  much older in the second photo

 

c) the wall to the right of the two men has quite different vegetation. Lots in the first photo and none in the second


Yes, I’m inclined to agree.  That chimes with the soldier in the second photo being dressed in a style common later in the war, whereas in picture one the dress is typical of 1914-15.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add - a lot of fig varieties are slow growers so I'm not sure whether you would see a considerable change even within the course of the war. Secondly I think a lot of the fig tree growth is blurred in the first picture. I'm looking at this on my phone so excuse me if I'm wrong. When I get home I'll have a better look at the plants to see if they offer further clues. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The photos haven;t been taken from quite the same place which makes it a bit harder. 1st photo there are flowers on the tall plants at the back which aren;t visible in the 2nd- but the movement of the fig leaves and different angle could account for this. I would suggest that they may have been taken on two different cameras (focus and lens length looks slightly different to me) . 

However, if you look at the small clump of flowers at the edge of the path at the base of the steps I think you can (just ) see that the flowers there match- so I would say same day or within a short time of each other.  

I can imagine that these two ?relatives? staying at the parents of one going out into the garden for photos in their uniforms and handing one camera to mum/aunty and then her swapping to the other one- maybe moving a but in between the two.

Whatever the circumstances what a cool and lucky find :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a thought. These seem to be photographs taken by a professional photographer. Just like a studio portrait can have a common background perhaps this photographer had a favourite outdoors backdrop - a garden behind his studio - that he favoured.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I second that. The photos are probably too good for the average amateur camera of the day. Also a professional photographer would tend to use the same spot at each visit. If it ain’t broke.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Definitely not taken on the same day.

In the first photo, the grass in the bottom right hand corner is longish and spiky.

In the second it is shorter.

Behind both subjects, on the far edge of the path are two boulders, the rightmost one being very pale.

Its edges are clearly visible in the First, but softened by two types of leaves (one long and narrow, the other cordate) in the second.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Definitely not taken on the same day.

In the first photo, the grass in the bottom right hand corner is longish and spiky.

In the second it is shorter.

Behind both subjects, on the far edge of the path are two boulders, the rightmost one being very pale.

Its edges are clearly visible in the First, but softened by two types of leaves (one long and narrow, the other cordate) in the second.

Just to counter that Dai- the grass could have been flattened by walking on it. The angle of the picture could account for the foliage difference on the rock. The foliage is indeed there. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Kath said:

I think that 2 South Street is the house with the skip in the front 'garden'.

It's an old semi detached, and the other half is No.4. Next one along is No. 6.

The modern house (converted into flats) is 2A and 2B

 

20 minutes ago, Bean tool said:

The foliage is indeed there. 

Not the smaller cordate shaped leaves, not along the top and right hand borders.

 

Corisande above has raised the issue of the fig.

At head height, rising diagonally up to the left is a branch which is clearly visible along its entire length in the First photo, apart from one part which is obscured by a single leaf base. In the second photo, much of this branch is obscured.

 

There are also differences in leaves or gravel situated on the far end of the First step. They are absent mostly in the second shot.

Edited by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can'r really see, but the presence/absence of flowers on plants e.g the taller ones to the soldiers' left would be strong evidence regarding chronology (unless, by coincidence, the photos were taken at the same time of year but in different years...).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For what it's worth I think the foliage behind and on their left side in front of the rubble & brick wall is slightly taller and thicker in first photo.

 

There is an eroded brick in the wall to the left side of their heads. More brick and rubble visible in the second photo  than first.

 

Doesn't provide a sequence for the photos, could be Easter then summer or summer then autumn.

TEW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...