John Campbell-drowned in the Liffey three days before discharge

[George Rayner]

A puzzle for you sleuths with some time on your hands!

This is the Death Certificate for John Campbell

 

 

From the vaults of Fold 3 (thank you) here is a Pension Card

 

An Irish Newspaper report sourced from our Irish correspondent via FMP

 

Now the questions are...where is he buried? are there any other service records for him? Apparently he had a wife and five children so is there a dependents pension record?

 

Thank you. Happy hunting

 

George

[kildaremark]

I would expect him to be interred in Grangegorman but don't see anything on line.

 

He is also listed on Soldiers Effects - widow- Jean. Enlisted 6/7/18.  War gratuity not admissable.   

 

The Liffey is usually very low at that bridge - you could stand there these days unless the tide was quite high.

 

Mark

Edited 27 August , 2020 by kildaremark

[George Rayner]

Thanks Mark

Have you got an Ancestry or FMP URL for the effects please? Yes I do subscribe so no worries...

 

George

[kildaremark]

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60506/images/42511_6129999_0156-00205?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=089884342afb884f4b70887f64a367da&usePUB=true&_phsrc=YFM3096&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=746913

 

Hope that works!

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Now the questions are...where is he buried? are there any other service records for him? Apparently he had a wife and five children so is there a dependents pension record?

 

Thank you. Happy hunting

 

George

Does Tom have the answer?

[Wexflyer]

6 hours ago, kildaremark said:

The Liffey is usually very low at that bridge - you could stand there these days unless the tide was quite high.

 

The water was in fact only 3 ft deep according to a different account, in the Northern Whig, which states that he threw himself in.

This version also has a different name - Alexander Campbell.

[museumtom]

Dai, myself and George have been working together and this was one we could not nail down.

Kind regards.

 Tom.

[George Rayner]

Interesting that Mark's find of Effects initially had George but was replaced with John.

Also as he did not qualify for War Gratuity because of length of service does this mean no CWGC burial/memorial?

Although he had to be buried somewhere...presumably Paisley?

 

George

[kildaremark]

Presumably if you could find the grave of Jean Campbell in Paisley - up to 1960s  - that might be the way to go.  You would imagine a Scottish paper will have the story?

 

Mark

[museumtom]

Interned in Woodside Cemetery and Crematorium.

[museumtom]

https://paisleycemetery.co.uk/historical-research/?sex=M&first_name=john&surname=campbell&age=&cause_death=&date_death_from=1918-01-01&date_death_to=1920-01-01&place_death=&occupation=&date_funeral_from=&date_funeral_to=&certif_no=&layer_no=&compartment=&depth=&search=search

[George Rayner]

Well done Tom.

We now know where he is buried. But as he died while still in service why no memorial or official recognition?

 

George

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The reports say he was due to be demobilized the next day.

Might there  be a discrepancy about the date?

Maybe he had already technically been demobilized and was just waiting for a boat home?

I can't find a MIC, it often gives a date for transfer to Class Z on it.

[George Rayner]

Thanks Dai. I think that needs a military expert to unravel without the evidence. Everything I've seen says 'waiting to be demobilized'

 

George

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Have you found his MIC?

 

[George Rayner]

No...that is a missing piece of the puzzle.

 

I'll try going through the options that have turned up i.e. George, and Alexander Campbell

 

George

[Jervis]

8 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The reports say he was due to be demobilized the next day.

Might there  be a discrepancy about the date?

Maybe he had already technically been demobilized and was just waiting for a boat home?

I can't find a MIC, it often gives a date for transfer to Class Z on it.

The newspaper report in OP details his movement. He travelled from Kinsale to Kingsbridge (train station), he was due to walk the short distance from Kingsbridge to the North Dublin Union  in Grangegorman - the Military discharge centre. Obviously he never got there and we can therefore assume he was not discharged and should have a CWGC. 

[George Rayner]

I have sent him off to Terry at In from the cold and he says John Campbell is in the system being looked at.

 

Thanks everybody for your help.

 

We await news...

 

George

[Matlock1418]

15 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Does anyone have any more background on the situation prevailing?

I note in the OP newspaper a couple of points that sparked my interest.

1) "Corporal Stenson said he took over the deceased at Kinsale barracks, where he was stationed, on Tuesday morning and with five other soldiers were on their way to the North Dublin Union, now a military discharge centre."

2) "The jury .... absolved the escort from blame"

OK, looks like a corporal taking charge of men to a discharge centre - but does this mean he, the corporal, was an 'escort'?

But this also perhaps rather sounds more like a prisoner(s) under escort [though an escort party of 6 might seem a lot of one man - though I suspect the enquiry and especially the newspaper might have made mention if that was the situation] and Capt. Kane seems to have debunked a military issue of any sort 

 

9 hours ago, Wexflyer said:

in the Northern Whig, which states that he threw himself in.

And why a verdict of suicide? - Nothing in the OP newspaper article about throwing himself into the river [though Wexflyer does later cite the Norther Whig reporting such] - perhaps he simply innocently jumped over the Liffey wall to avoid the motorcar, and unfortunately into the river by accident.  Many such events have happened in many such places/situations in the past [M6 Thelwall Viaduct into the Manchester Ship Canal seems to be lodged in the back of my mind - Ouch!] and more recently elsewhere too

 

Might not the stigma of suicide, and perhaps his widow even blaming the military for such a situation, not have resulted in no one making a CWGC application even though it certainly does appear he may not have been fully formally discharged [when does that actually occur? - I thought a couple of weeks of home furlough often preceded full final discharge date] - this certainly seems a likely reason for commemoration now.

 

Has anyone actually seen his grave? - does it still exist and is it marked in any way? [I can't find a photo on the websites I usually trawl]

 

= ???

:-/ M

[kildaremark]

I have to say that the wall along that stretch of the river is very low and hasn't changed in 100 years - coming from the train and crossing the road would bring you to the very low point to the left of the bridge - being unfamiliar with the road and running across, it is feasible that he could have fallen over. It was also dark according to the newspaper. Looking at the people to the right, the wall is only at waist-height so possible to topple over.

 

Of course, the escort's role was to get him from 'A' to 'B' and if he suffered a mishap on the way then the escort was at fault. If he jumped then the military were not at fault, There might be a distinction to be made here.

 

I don't think there is an issue about him being discharged or not - he is recorded in 'Soldiers Effects' which confirms he is serving.

 

Mark

Edited 28 August , 2020 by kildaremark

[George Rayner]

Thank you for continued interest. 

I will encourage our Irish correspondent to put some more of the Irish newspapers up for perusal. The inquest, as reported, appears clear although the clearing of the Corporal was an interesting point.

 

George

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, kildaremark said:

I have to say that the wall along that stretch of the river is very low and hasn't changed in 100 years - coming from the train and crossing the road would bring you to the very low point to the left of the bridge - being unfamiliar with the road and running across, it is feasible that he could have fallen over. It was also dark according to the newspaper. Looking at the people to the right, the wall is only at waist-height so possible to topple over.

1 hour ago, kildaremark said:

Of course, the escort's role was to get him from 'A' to 'B' and if he suffered a mishap on the way then the escort was at fault. If he jumped then the military were not at fault, There might be a distinction to be made here.

 

3 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

The inquest, as reported, appears clear although the clearing of the Corporal was an interesting point.

Which ever way so very sad when a young man, especially one with close and extended family, loses his life.

I have to say I believe that, without any hard proof to hand, accidental death is a still perhaps a distinct possibility.

The suicide verdict seems to have handily got the Corporal and the Army off the hook - But I wonder what further effect the verdict had on his family ??

I worry it would have made a tragedy worse in a number of ways for the family - emotionally [and possibly financial too ??]

Glad you have now put him up for CWGC commemoration.

:-) M

 

[George Rayner]

Thanks-Terry has said that he was already identified and with current rates a decision will be three months. They have a lot to do and are doing a very difficult job proving/disproving circumstances as we must know from our own researches

 

George

[Matlock1418]

34 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Terry has said that he was already identified

And of course thanks to the IFCP team too.

:-) M

[George Rayner]

Indeed