Scots Uniform and Insignia?

[JR Maz]

Hello all - My Scottish grandfather was in WWI. I am trying to understand where and when he served. From a transcribed letter I have, he seems to have been at Cambrae Nov. 30, 1917 into December. In February of 2018 he was a Stoker on the HMS Adventure until 2019. I have a photo of him and cannot decipher the insignia or badges. Was it common for men to transfer between branches? 

The records I have found so far read: 

 

1916 - Roderick M. Mitchell
Residence Place: Argyllshire, Scotland
Age: 18
Military Company/Regiment: Army Service Corps
Military Regiment: M/225299
1898
Birthplace: Lochgilphead, Argyllshire, Scotland

And: 

Training Reserve
Military Regiment: TR/9/5599
Battalion: 26th Battalion

I have attached the photo - any assistance would be greatlt appreciated! 

 

[Waddell]

He looks to be wearing the uniform of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.

 

Can you enlarge the badges on his sleeve and shoulder?

 

Scott

Edited 26 August , 2020 by Waddell
Added more.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, he is A&SH.  The three rows of white dicing on his glengarry together with the ‘swinging six’ tassels on his sporran all confirm it.

The badges on his sleeve are Lewis Gunner (LG in wreath) and marksman (crossed rifles).

It’s not impossible that he started with the A&SH, perhaps Training Reserve, then later to ASC.  It’s unusual, but not impossible to then end up in the Royal Navy, but that’s all conjecture on my part and it needs corroboration via records.

Edited 26 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

16 hours ago, JR Maz said:

..... From a transcribed letter I have, he seems to have been at Cambrae Nov. 30, 1917 into December. In February of 2018 he was a Stoker on the HMS Adventure until 2019.

 

Was it common for men to transfer between branches? 

 

Roderick M. Mitchell

Argyllshire, Scotland
1898, Lochgilphead, Argyllshire

 

 

The time line that you set out there seems very unlikely (assuming you mean Cambrai in December 1917 and the date for HMS Adventure should read February 1918). Men did sometimes switch between services, but that usually occurred after their period of service in one branch ended (they were discharged for some reason, or deserted). Even then, they would have to undergo some form of basic training in their 'new' branch (in this case, the Navy), but the timeline you set out leaves no more than 2 months between him leaving France and presumably being discharged, to him serving at sea as a Stoker on an RN ship. I looked for a service record for him in the RN, RNVR and RNR but can't find one. What was it in the transcribed letter that leads you to understand he served in the Navy? 

Edited 26 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

I wonder if this might be a case of two brothers with similar names.

Edited 26 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

There is a surviving service record on Ancestry for a Roderick Mitchell with the service number 225299. His father's name is John Mitchell, living at Lome Street, Lochgilphead. At the time of his enlistment in December 1916 he was apparently a medical student, aged 18 years and 1 month, supposedly joining the Royal Engineers according to Ancestry, but transferred to the 26th Training Reserve Battalion in January 1917. It then appears that he deserted on 14 April 1917, if I have interpreted the last notation on his very brief service record correctly. If this is correct, it's possible that he may have then joined the Royal Navy using a different name.

Edited 26 August , 2020 by Tawhiri

[headgardener]

13 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

If this is correct, it's possible that he may have then joined the Royal Navy using a different name.

 

Plausible, but if he deserted in Apr 1917 he couldn't have been serving at Cambrai in Nov-Dec 1917 (as per the OP). I suspect that some facts and /or dates have got a bit mangled here. Hopefully JR Maz can clarify what exactly is known about this period of his life. 

[Acknown]

According to the 1901 Scottish Census (Ancestry), Roderick had four brothers who might have served in WW1: Francis G (born about 1895); James A (1892); Donald M (1890); and John (1887).

I cannot find any Francis or Donald Mitchell Argylls in the MIC list, but there are plenty of James and Johns. I also cannot find any service records for any of them.

Acknown

[Tawhiri]

I couldn't find an obvious match in the medal rolls for him either, when if he had served in France he would have been eligible for both the British War and Victory Medals. Like headgardener, being at Cambrai in November-December 1917 seems off to me in this case.

[TullochArd]

5 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

The time line that you set out there seems very unlikely (assuming you mean Cambrai in December 1917 and the date for HMS Attentive should read February 1918). Men did sometimes switch between services, but that usually occurred after their period of service in one branch ended (they were discharged for some reason, or deserted). Even then, they would have to undergo some form of basic training in their 'new' branch (in this case, the Navy), but the timeline you set out leaves no more than 2 months between him leaving France and presumably being discharged, to him serving at sea as a Stoker on an RN ship. I looked for a service record for him in the RN, RNVR and RNR but can't find one. What was it in the transcribed letter that leads you to understand he served in the Navy? 

 

I'm confused ............ a Stoker on HMS Adventure (JR Maz) or HMS Attentive (headgardener)? 

[TullochArd]

3 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

There is a surviving service record on Ancestry for a Roderick Mitchell with the service number 225299. His father's name is John Mitchell, living at Lome Street, Lochgilphead. At the time of his enlistment in December 1916 he was apparently a medical student, aged 18 years and 1 month, supposedly joining the Royal Engineers according to Ancestry, but transferred to the 26th Training Reserve Battalion in January 1917. It then appears that he deserted on 14 April 1917, if I have interpreted the last notation on his very brief service record correctly. If this is correct, it's possible that he may have then joined the Royal Navy using a different name.

 

This above summary seems to tell of a rather short Army career ......... likely attested as an RE and transferred/trained in 26 Bn.  However the photo does not strike me as of a someone with such a brief career as the dress/carriage and Marksman/LG Proficiency badge suggest something other. 

 

Is this really Roderick M. Mitchell?

 

Additionally,  from the OP "Training Reserve, Military Regiment: TR/9/5599, Battalion: 26th Battalion"

 

26th Training Reserve Battalion were 10th (Reserve) Battalion Suffolk Regiment based at Harwich.  Regimental numbers were prefixed TR/9 which is consistent with the OP. 

 

......... I still cannot see when Roderick M. Mitchell was an Argyll as suggested by the photo?

 

Edited 26 August , 2020 by TullochArd

[Heid the Ba]

Is Cambrae actually Cambrai?  If he was at Cumbrae Nov/Dec 1917 it makes more sense as him being RN and the photo being someone else..

[Tawhiri]

It gets even more confusing when you start looking for other records. According to the 1915 New York State census Roderick Morrison Mitchell, born in Lochgilphead on 30 November 1898, was living in Schenectady, New York, with his older brother, Frank G, as stepsons of William Young, who was married to Margaret E Young. His mother's name matches with Margaret E Mitchell in the 1901 Scotland census, and there is no sign of Roderick in the 1911 Scotland census (see below for an update). The 1911 Scotland census does, however, have a John Mitchell aged 48 living in the Lochgilphead registration district, so consistent with the information in Roderick Mitchell's (service number 225299) brief service record if this is, indeed, his father. He seems to have spent most of his post-WW1 life living in the US, in New York State.

 

Edited to add that there is a marriage between a William D Young and a Margaret Elizabeth Mitchell/Morrison, registered under both Mitchell and Morrison, in Hutchesontown in 1911. That then allows me to find Margaret E, Donald M, Francis G, and Roderick M Mitchell living in Newington, Midlothian in the 1911 Scotland census.

Edited 26 August , 2020 by Tawhiri

[headgardener]

12 minutes ago, Heid the Ba said:

Is Cambrae actually Cambrai?  If he was at Cumbrae Nov/Dec 1917 it makes more sense as him being RN and the photo being someone else..

 

Yes, but where's the RN/RNVR/RNR service papers? The facts seem a little confused, best if JRMaz confirms what the transcribed letter actually says. 

45 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

 

I'm confused ............ a Stoker on HMS Adventure (JR Maz) or HMS Attentive (headgardener)? 

 

Christ... What an idiot! Sorry, my mistake! 😟😏

[Tawhiri]

56 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Yes, but where's the RN/RNVR/RNR service papers? The facts seem a little confused, best if JRMaz confirms what the transcribed letter actually says.

If he had deserted from the Army, then he would surely have to enlisted in the Royal Navy under an assumed name. Without that name, finding his naval service papers is likely to be near impossible.

Edited 26 August , 2020 by Tawhiri

[headgardener]

1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

If he had deserted from the Army, then he would surely have to enlisted in the Royal Navy under an assumed name. Without that name, finding his naval service papers is likely to be near impossible.

 

Doesn't necessarily follow - I can cite examples (some of which can be seen on this forum) of men who deserted one service and enlisted in another under the same name, date of birth, address, next of kin.... You may be absolutely correct, of course, but let's see what JR Maz can provide us regarding his service details. 

[Tawhiri]

I suspect that the service details that the OP has provided have come from FamilySearch, as the service details provided are identical to those in the two entries that I can find in United Kingdom, World War I Service Records, 1914-1920 on FamilySearch for Roderick Mitchell.

[headgardener]

Yes, but the OP is citing details from a transcribed letter which appears to describe this man serving at Cambrae (Cambrai?) in Nov/Dec 1917 and later in the RN. We need those details of were going to make sense of this. 

Edited 26 August , 2020 by headgardener

[gordon92]

The subject in the original photograph is wearing spats and a sporran.  This suggests to me that the date of the photo was late 1914 - early 1915.  This factor casts suspicion that the photo is someone other than Roderick M Mitchell.

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

The subject in the original photograph is wearing spats and a sporran.  This suggests to me that the date of the photo was late 1914 - early 1915.  This factor casts suspicion that the photo is someone other than Roderick M Mitchell.

I agree.  Much of the foregoing comment has implied that too.

[JR Maz]

Thank you so much for your responses. It is confusing, I will try to fill in the gaps. I am certain this is his picture. I know of no other near or far relative that would have written these letters. I have another photo with him in a Navy uniform. He went to the USA in 1911. No other brothers with same name and his parents (John Mitchell/ Margaret) divorced and mother remarried W. Young. According to a transcribed letter he was back in Scotland in 1916. The digital, military records I have found on Fold3, show he  signed up 12/23/1916 & deserted 04/14/1917. 

Another transcribed letter says he was part of an "advance party" to Kesham, Dublin & Cork, Ireland, then Grantham, Linconshire for some training in early November,1917,  and then on to Boulogne, Nov. 25th and Cambrai on Nov. 30 using the phrase "at 7:50AM I was at the gun," and on Dec. 30th -Jan. 4 at Welsh Ridge, attacked by troops of the Crown Prince Rupprecht near La Vacquerie. 

I found records on Fold3 showing him (same birth year and hometown) a Stoker / Stoker 2 / Engine Room Artificer (ADM 188/962/47509/ ADM337-107). The "Adventure" was identified from his letter and a postcard showing it in Smyrna in 1919. According to a family letter, US consulate in Glasgow deemed him an "alien" when he returned to the US in September, 1919. 

 

P.S. To add to the confusion, according to family legend,  he was back possibly when he was 16 or in 1914. I have another unsigned letter that I believe is his that says he was in reserve at St. Julian on April 21st, 1915 with the 13th Battalion, describing events that would involve the 2nd Battle of Ypres. That may be a stretch! 
 

Again, thank you for your help! 

Edited 27 August , 2020 by JR Maz
spelling correction

[Tom K]

If by the "13th Bn. at the 2nd battle of Ypres" you mean 13th Battalion Canadian Expeditionary Force (Black Watch - Royal Highlanders of Canada),  there is no record of a Roderick Mitchell (nor a Mitchell Roderick) in the CEF - while not infallible, the Canadian Archive CEF records are quite complete. 

 

While it would not be unheard of for a 16 year old volunteer resident in America, to have made it overseas with the CEF (particularly in 1914), if he did serve in the CEF, it was under a different name.  When "discovered" underage volunteers were discharged from service or sometimes transferred out of harm's way,  to the Canadian Forestry Corps and sent to cut trees in Scotland (particularly if they were fit and close to majority). 

 

A plausible (if fanciful) service history could be:  Roderick M Mitchell enlists in the CEF, underage and using a fake name, fights at 2nd Ypres,  gets found out and is discharged in Britain as a consequence. Re-enlists under his real name - ends up in the Training Reserve, gets bored waiting around and so falls in - unofficially - with some other unit headed for France, in the process disappearing from his TR unit (hence "Deserted"). Fights with this unknown unit at Cambrai, gets found out again. Takes off and joins the RN. 

 

T.K.

Edited 27 August , 2020 by Tom K

[JR Maz]

Thank you, Tom K - I did check the Canadian Archive and found nothing. What acutally happened is difficult to piece together but I have grown more fascinated by it. Old family stories are not always accurate! 

[headgardener]

Thanks for posting these further details. It looks like a bit of a jigsaw puzzle, so it would help us to piece it together if you extract all the details that you have in the letters and other documents and set them out for us here. 

In your last post you set out 2 RN references: I had to track them down by their reference numbers. The first shows "Roy Mitchell" (b. 1 Nov 1898) from Lochgilphead who joined the RN on 27 Nov 1917 and who deserted ("Run") on 6 Jan 1918. You mentioned another document reference number which took me to an RNVR record for a Stoker called "R. Mitchell" with the service number MC2435 who appears to have served from April to Jun 1919.

Just to illustrate the complexity of trying to put this all together, you've identified Roderick Mitchell b.1898 as enlisting in the RE in Dec 1916, transferred to a TRB in Jan 1917 and then deserting in 14 Apr. You also say he wrote a letter saying that he was with the army in Ireland (presumably shortly after deserting from the TRB) then training at Lincolnshire, then to Boulogne on 25 Nov 1917, then Cambrai on 30 Nov 1917 and on to Welsh Ridge from 30 Dec 1917 until 6 Jan 1918. You've also identified him as being RN recruit "Roy Mitchell" b.1898, enlisted 27 Nov 1917 who served at a depot in the UK from that date until he deserted on 6 Jan 1918. You've identified him as serving on HMS Adventure from Feb 1918 until 1919. Then you've identified him as an RNVR Stoker "R. Mitchell" who appears to have served from Apr - Jun 1919.

First of all, the letter that you cite regarding Roderick's service at Cambrai and Welsh ridge overlaps with the period of service at a depot in the UK undertaken by Roy Mitchell. Roderick Mitchell RE is plausibly Roy Mitchell RN (both from Lochgilphead, both born 1898, both deserted), but why do you link them to "R Mitchell" RNVR? And Roy Mitchell RN wasnt in France during Nov 17 to Jan 18, so are you absolutely sure that the letters from France were written by him? And then there's the photo of a fully trained A&SH man dating from about 1914/15 who is supposedly the 16/17 year old Roderick. You mentioned HMS Adventure, but that doesn't seem to appear in the RN service papers you've drawn our attention to. 

You've clearly got some other dates and details from your letters, and there are so many questions that are raised by his fragmentary service details, so it would really help us to piece it all together if you extract everything that might be of relevance from your letters (dates, ships, places) and set them out in a timeline, together with details of any other service records you have. Some of the details on the RNVR service document are obscured by a National Archives 'watermark', so could you post a clip from that? Also can you post the photo of your man in Naval uniform so we can compare it to the A&SH photo. 

On the face of it, it looks to me as though the letters could be from from someone else as they don't match the places that we know Roderick was at in late 1917/ early 18. It's very intriguing, and we want to help, but we need to know everything that we can in order not to spend time chasing false leads. 

Edited 27 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

As an aside to this odd and intriguing case (I’m still unclear if this man’s a serial deserter, or several men conflated) I was surprised to see that he wears a two-part brass Lewis Gunners badge very early in the war and seemingly mounted on a patch of felt.
 

There were more variations to the Lewis Gun badge than almost all others.  However, the British Army only officially adopted the Lewis gun in October 1915 and it arrived on general issue to infantry battalions on the Western Front in early 1916.  
 

That timeframe given, it seems impossible that the badge is as early as the uniform style, because spats and dress sporran were not widely being worn by battalions at that later stage.  It’s all very odd indeed.

 

Edited 27 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE