Changes of Battalion

[AlanR]

On 24/08/2020 at 17:50, ss002d6252 said:

Looking at surrounding men

 

#265979
Attested December 1915, called up March 1916

#265980 - #4669 (possibly)
Attested December 1915, called up April 1916

#265983
Attested December 1915, called up April 1916

#265984
Attested November 1915, called up April 1916

 

The surviving records show a curious lack of recording the pre 1917 numbers for them.

 

Craig

Hi Craig,

I've been doing a lot more searching in relation to my grandfather's war service, and from the numbers you listed above I've been able to find a service record for a soldier named Frank Nolan 265983 who also enlisted in St Helens and also served with the LNL Pioneers.

Just one thing though - how were you able to find the dates on which those men attested and were called up

Alan

 

 

[Pat Atkins]

Casualty List 5/6/1918 (source: National Library of Scotland) doesn't give Pte Robinson's battalion, alas; however, it's an extensive list with many names which suggests a specific action, rather than attrition. A comparison of the two War Diaries might throw some light. 

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Edit: Changes to the allocation of manpower during the course of the war meant a man returning to active service after wounding might well be subject to a change in battalion; a switch to a role such as pioneer would also fit such a scenario. Should say I'm not particularly familiar with the late war period, however.

Edited 30 August , 2020 by Pat Atkins

[Pat Atkins]

Actually, looking at the 1/4th Bn War Diary, they had 53 ORs wounded from 1-6 June 1918, with no specific action recorded, so I could be wrong about the scale of attrition. They were in support at Givenchy, finding working parties. Couldn't find the WD for 12th Bn on Ancestry.

[ss002d6252]

10 hours ago, AlanR said:

Hi Craig,

I've been doing a lot more searching in relation to my grandfather's war service, and from the numbers you listed above I've been able to find a service record for a soldier named Frank Nolan 265983 who also enlisted in St Helens and also served with the LNL Pioneers.

Just one thing though - how were you able to find the dates on which those men attested and were called up

Alan

 

 

A search of FindMyPast for similar numbers. It allows you to use a wild card, so you can search for all 26598? numbers, for example, and see which have surviving service records.

Craig

[AlanR]

11 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

A search of FindMyPast for similar numbers. It allows you to use a wild card, so you can search for all 26598? numbers, for example, and see which have surviving service records.

Craig

Thanks Craig. Much appreciated

[AlanR]

13 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Casualty List 5/6/1918 (source: National Library of Scotland) doesn't give Pte Robinson's battalion, alas; however, it's an extensive list with many names which suggests a specific action, rather than attrition. A comparison of the two War Diaries might throw some light. 

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Edit: Changes to the allocation of manpower during the course of the war meant a man returning to active service after wounding might well be subject to a change in battalion; a switch to a role such as pioneer would also fit such a scenario. Should say I'm not particularly familiar with the late war period, however.

Thanks very much for the help

[AlanR]

On 30/08/2020 at 18:10, Pat Atkins said:

Casualty List 5/6/1918 (source: National Library of Scotland) doesn't give Pte Robinson's battalion, alas; however, it's an extensive list with many names which suggests a specific action, rather than attrition. A comparison of the two War Diaries might throw some light. 

 

Cheers, Pat

 

Edit: Changes to the allocation of manpower during the course of the war meant a man returning to active service after wounding might well be subject to a change in battalion; a switch to a role such as pioneer would also fit such a scenario. Should say I'm not particularly familiar with the late war period, however.

What I haven't been able to establish yet is (a) when Austin, my grandfather, went overseas (we know that he did because he has a MIC); (b) when did he join the 1/12th (we know that he did because he is shown as belonging to this regiment in the Medal & Award Rolls); and (c) at what point did he transfer to the 1/4th (we know that he did because this too is shown in the Medal & Award Rolls). The journey continues....

[headgardener]

I think we have been able to surmise at least rough answers to these questions, and that's probably going to be the best that can be arrived at in the absence of his service papers. 

 

As has been suggested, if you search the service papers for men with numbers close to your man (set quite broad parameters) then you may be able to see a pattern as to where they served in the UK and when they were drafted to France (as well as the battalion they were drafted to). 

 

Until you're able to do that, or find local newspaper reports, the best answers to your questions are... 

a) When did he go overseas? Sometime after March 1917 and before about early May 1918 (based on his name appearing on the Cas List dated 5 Jun 1918). 

b) & c) When did he join the 1/12th and the 1/4th? We can't be sure which one he served with first, although my earlier suggestion is probably the most likely (that he initially joined 2/12th which was absorbed en masse by 4th Reserve in the UK, and transferred from there to 1/4th in France - alternatively, it is possible he went from 4th Reserve to 1/12th). The probable date at which he transferred from one to the other is likely to be immediately after he recovered from his wound(s). 

 

That's lots of 'likely's and 'probable's, but it's the best that can be achieved without more information (particularly newspaper reports and an analysis of the service of men with close numbers). 

Edited 2 September , 2020 by headgardener

[AlanR]

9 hours ago, headgardener said:

I think we have been able to surmise at least rough answers to these questions, and that's probably going to be the best that can be arrived at in the absence of his service papers. 

 

As has been suggested, if you search the service papers for men with numbers close to your man (set quite broad parameters) then you may be able to see a pattern as to where they served in the UK and when they were drafted to France (as well as the battalion they were drafted to). 

 

Until you're able to do that, or find local newspaper reports, the best answers to your questions are... 

a) When did he go overseas? Sometime after March 1917 and before about early May 1918 (based on his name appearing on the Cas List dated 5 Jun 1918). 

b) & c) When did he join the 1/12th and the 1/4th? We can't be sure which one he served with first, although my earlier suggestion is probably the most likely (that he initially joined 2/12th which was absorbed en masse by 4th Reserve in the UK, and transferred from there to 1/4th in France - alternatively, it is possible he went from 4th Reserve to 1/12th). The probable date at which he transferred from one to the other is likely to be immediately after he recovered from his wound(s). 

 

That's lots of 'likely's and 'probable's, but it's the best that can be achieved without more information (particularly newspaper reports and an analysis of the service of men with close numbers). 

 

[AlanR]

Thanks headgardener, I have started to find some of those with service records and with numbers close to his, and same battalion. I’ve got a couple to be going on with now. I can’t find yet, however, any reference to when the 4th reserve may have sent men to France to either battalion. But, following your advice, I am using the service records of others to put together some kind of likely sequence. Some of those service records are harder to read than doctors prescriptions !

[headgardener]

24 minutes ago, AlanR said:

Thanks headgardener, I have started to find some of those with service records and with numbers close to his, and same battalion. I’ve got a couple to be going on with now. I can’t find yet, however, any reference to when the 4th reserve may have sent men to France to either battalion. But, following your advice, I am using the service records of others to put together some kind of likely sequence. Some of those service records are harder to read than doctors prescriptions !

 

If in doubt, post clips of the bits you don't understand - there's a whole host of us on this forum who enjoy the challenge of piecing together stories from fragmentary sources, which usually involves trying to make sense of docs like these. . 

[AlanR]

9 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

If in doubt, post clips of the bits you don't understand - there's a whole host of us on this forum who enjoy the challenge of piecing together stories from fragmentary sources, which usually involves trying to make sense of docs like these. . 

Thats really very good of you, and much appreciated.

I will work out what I can, and then do just that.

I've already learned quite a bit about how to go about it just in the short time I've been on the forum thanks to you and others

 

Alan