Concentration of Graves records. Good enough to change date of death?

[tharkin56]

Reading the new loaded records I have noticed different date of deaths on the concentration record. Would this date be taken as sufficient evidence by the CWGC to change a date of death?

 

This date also aligns with the date on the GRU but somewhere must have been decided it was a different date albeit in one day difference

 

Is their something else to use as evidence?

 

 

[Matlock1418]

As always without a specific example it is impossible to give a specific answer - and I do suspect it is often on a case by case basis

Out of interest - one day difference - One day less [earlier death] or one day more [later death] used by CWGC?

 

I believe can be quite common for a one day difference since unit Casualty Returns were I believe made at 0600 hrs for the previous 24 hours - so even such a CR is probably likely to be considered quite 'suspect' by CWGC I would think

I have a relative who went into action one day (late afternoon) but whose death is recorded as [presumed KiA] the later next though no evidence now available as to how or which day he actually died [possibly not even then - thus if not on the first, obviously considered dead by the second date - sadly like so many who died in the same action he has no known no grave, just a memorial inscription]

Over-night actions, or their aftermath, would be likely to also be similarly questionable I would likewise fear.

If a later date used, then considered truly died/dead by then - seems a grim reality / realisation of not coming home again!

 

If an officer [because OR were so rarely mentioned] it might be a case of looking at the unit's WD to see if/how recorded there

 

And what about field ambulance / hospital record(s?

 

If wounded and taken a PoW before dying on/close to the battlefield then I suppose an opponent unit's WD /field ambulance / hospital record(s) might have, or now, shed some light - but how to find?

 

ICRC/CICR PoW records might shed some light but probably really only if dying some time after capture and better processed into the system

 

An original Grave Marker, if provided, may perhaps have had an accurate date, if for example buried and marked by his pals [and that may perhaps have ended up on a GRU CR], but ... even his mates may not have absolutely known for certain [sure they may have seen him wounded on one day, but when did he actually die? - sadly so many wounded left for so long dying on a battlefield before even a relatively short recovery time for their body] and memories do often play tricks during/after periods of stress.

So, even if you could find such evidence of a GM [perhaps as a photo, even if not physically to hand], it probably wouldn't have been considered definitive then, or be now.

 

All records potentially prone to human error [and one day difference rather seems likely the least of potential faux pas if passing through many hands]

 

GRU CR [COG-BR] = I too suspect not enough on its own.

CWGC will take a lot of persuading to change a date of death I think - "If [whatever source] was considered good enough back then, why change now?" I suspect = oh, they do so love a DC!!! ;-/

:-) M

Edited 5 September , 2020 by Matlock1418
typo

[tharkin56]

Thanks all, some examples below

 

Lets take Lt Col L M Howard as an example official date of 2nd July 1916, Burial return has the 1st July and GRU has the 1st July. His pension was paid to his children back dated to the 2nd July and I have noticed this is normally a day of the date of death. Locally reported died of wounds the 2nd July.

 

So if I went of documented CWGC records would I sway towards the 1st .

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/545896/LOUIS MEREDITH HOWARD/

 

Also another example https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/608901/JOHN ALEXANDER HELLARD/

 

Record seems to have been amended/late addition by red biro.

 

An interview was undertaken with Corporal 11403 George Hibbard B Company; ‘We reached the 3^rd or 4^th line of German trenches. I saw Lieutenant Hellard hit though the head by a bullet - he dropped beside me. I crawled to him, and he was dead - he was hit in the wire between the 3^rd and 4^th line .... I crawled back myself."

 

Officially 10th July, (the last one probably less challenging GRU and burial records state the 1st) reported locally as the 1st, buried with a fellow officer and private also killed 1st

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/191000/T S CHARLESWORTH/

 

From all the records which has the highest weighting

GRU

MIC ( if this includes date of death)

NA file 

War Diary 

Burial return

Pension 

Ambulance records

Local papers

 

I am a  bit process based so trying to understand how one records seem to tie in one case and a different record in another. Off course could be none of the above and taken of a previous grave marker

 

Thanks all

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matlock1418]

I was earlier considering an extended field of alternative sources

 

 

t56, you certainly now have quite a cumulative list to go at - naturally a SR would be pretty handy!

 

As all Guest's suggestions are British official documents from inside the UK and somewhat separated in time from events on the ground I feel they could perhaps be rather 'incestuous' [as I think can be all personal admin types of related official documents] and if so with few and/or little implication(s) if any/many in error - Except perhaps other than for financial purposes where it could be a mixed blessing I suppose (More pay less pension or the reverse I guess)

 - Certainly if government money is to be expended then the SE {pay], Gratuity and Pensions records would probably seem likely to be considered more definitive than medal or other sources [even if the former are not specifically accurate! ;-/] 

 

As for Soldier's Effects I am interested by your findings as I have only looked at a relatively small number, most without any degree of discrepancy with other sources.

[Unfortunately in my relative's case I have seen his SE and it has both dates, as do his 14 Star Roll and Pension cards(s) (and all quite deliberately entered as such) so it seems even they really weren't sure! - or perhaps rather 'incestuous' and so the double date multiplied :-/

It is not my thread and I am not currently looking further at this - so no name or number provided for my relative ;-) - a vaguely-named soldier from his battalion (so not fully identified) is said to have allegedly reported to his family that he saw him dead on the battlefield, but no date provided (so many qualifications over authenticity and/or or accuracy!) - I have not found any further report of him after then.  CWGC apparently plumbed for the later date - at least it certainly seems more likely he had actually died / was dead by then]

 

Hence my earlier approach / suggestions.

 

I might suspect, that if in doubt, a later date is more often chosen by CWGC over an early one

[but it rather looks like somebody's research project might be worth awakening! - their findings awaited with interest]

- it would be good to find out more one way or another.

;-) M

 

[Matlock1418]

8 minutes ago, tharkin56 said:

From all the records which has the highest weighting

t56

Posts have just crossed - I might suspect financial ones trump others!!!

- but just a guess as I don't have evidence

:-) M

 

Edit: As for pension - didn't the dead man/officer get paid for his day of death and thus the pension to start a day later ??

Edited 5 September , 2020 by Matlock1418
edit addition

[tharkin56]

in terms of pension I think the majority i have looked at start the day after date of death. Even today I couldn't see anyone paying you pension if they didn't have to. The saddest application I came across was this one A letter to the War Office in February 1917 from an officer wife’s solicitors followed up from a previous letter enquiring about pension and explained that the expected child was still born and nothing further would need to be done with regards to pension. 

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, tharkin56 said:

The saddest application I came across was this one A letter to the War Office in February 1917 from an officer wife’s solicitors followed up from a previous letter enquiring about pension and explained that the expected child was still born and nothing further would need to be done with regards to pension. 

I hope if eligible [e.g. not remarried] the widow got her own pension, even if not for the still-born child = Sad for many reasons.

Unfortunately I suspect not the only one in this sort of situation.

:-( M

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

GRU reports had access to the original soldier files, 

 

What evidence do you have for Graves Registration Units having had access to or indeed having accessed soldier's attestation and discharge papers, or officer's service files ?

This is an extremely important point so please be quite specific as to what the evidence is.

 

With regards to dates of death - there seems (from experience) to have been no set time of day for diarists to record casualties during the preceding 24 hours, and recording "accumulated" casualty figures for periods of several days was extremely common - Monday to Thursday's all recorded and dated on the Friday. If you are looking at cases where one record shows a man as deceased on say the 14th and another report says the 15th then I'd have to suggest that unless you can find some cast-iron official and specific record of the death (war diary) then you'll be going nowhere with trying to get the CWGC to change their records - that can be staggeringly hard even when you can present a very solid evidence based case.

Tom

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, tharkin56 said:

Lets take Lt Col L M Howard as an example official date of 2nd July 1916, Burial return has the 1st July and GRU has the 1st July. His pension was paid to his children back dated to the 2nd July and I have noticed this is normally a day of the date of death. Locally reported died of wounds the 2nd July.

 

So if I went of documented CWGC records would I sway towards the 1st .

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/545896/LOUIS MEREDITH HOWARD/

Returning to your earlier post on Lt Col Howard

Interesting to note that on same COG-BR

from the same map reference 57d.X.20.a Pte D Atkinson 22/435 22 N Fus. is recorded [and commemorated] as 1st July

Likewise at the same map ref Pte Temple 1379 10 Lincs is/as 1 July

Different close map ref Pte P Bingham 1209 10 Lincs is/as also 1st July

= ?

24 Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers War Diary 1 Jan 1916 to 31 July 1917 is at the NA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353918 - currently free to download as I am sure you know

Lt Col Howard is initially mentioned as leading an attack on 1 July but is not mentioned again until 7 July when, following lists from CCS, is listed as amongst the four dead officers "killed or died of wounds before reaching Dressing Stations"

103 Infantry Brigade diary https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14054926 only gives numbers of officers killed wounded or missing, none by name, 1-4th July inclusive.

 = not very helpful I'm afraid

:-/ M

[Matlock1418]

49 minutes ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

With regards to dates of death - there seems (from experience) to have been no set time of day for diarists to record casualties during the preceding 24 hours

Can't quote my source [as can't recall it] but I think there was one for Casualty Returns - as for diaries, well that is quite possibly a different thing

49 minutes ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

recording "accumulated" casualty figures for periods of several days was extremely common

As I think I experienced whilst researching and compiling my post above

:-/ M

Edited 5 September , 2020 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

50 minutes ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

If you are looking at cases where one record shows a man as deceased on say the 14th and another report says the 15th then I'd have to suggest that unless you can find some cast-iron official and specific record of the death (war diary) then you'll be going nowhere with trying to get the CWGC to change their records - that can be staggeringly hard even when you can present a very solid evidence based case.

The only one they seem to usually accept, short of a DC or other such cast-iron proof, is if the OCR [or other] transcription from Graves Register [which they consider virtually sacrosanct] to website commemoration is different

Otherwise ... as Tom suggests

:-/ M

[tharkin56]

Again a point and i hadn't thought of if you were on the way to a dressing station and died on the way, would you be 

a) taken somewhere else and logged as having died on that day

b) logged at the dressing station as having died on that day

c) down to individuals at the time

 

Again this opens up a whole area I am not familiar with, whom was responsible for recording date of death at dressing stations or on the way.

 

A while ago I bought Slaughter on the Somme the war diaries but i found that the most important data was in the following days are in the appendix at the end of the month. i.e not covered in the book but only in war diary with NMP

 

 

[Matlock1418]

16 minutes ago, tharkin56 said:

down to individuals at the time

Can't answer your Dressing Station questions

But for the last - Wherever, probably down to circumstances too - a 'quiet' day in the line versus a busy day attacking or defending like mad

WD = the Adjutant's job for the CO - but the flow of info will also be vital as to timing/when put in the WD

:-/ M

Edited 5 September , 2020 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

t56, Returning again to your earlier post on Lt Col Louis Meredith HOWARD https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/545896/LOUIS MEREDITH HOWARD

 

Interesting to note that his MIC at the National Archives https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2969560 [and at Ancestry] records "Died 2.7.16"

 

At least at the NA there also seem to be his:

= WO 339/20453 Officer's Long Number Papers service record https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1074370

and

= PIN 26/21808 Records created or inherited by the Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance and its successors https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3406838 [the alternative earlier reference OAF 98268 matches up with his Pension Card at WFA/Fold3 https://www.fold3.com/image/689293981?terms=1019,meredith,howard,louis  - this also shows his mother had a claim as OAF 24633 and that his widow remarried]

Sadly neither of these later NA records are yet digitised but I think both they should be pretty detailed - surely a date of death would have been confirmed somewhere! [as previously commented a pension commonly seems to start the day after the date of death]

A visit by someone to the NA seems to be required [I'd love to go and know, but sorry I'm miles away - so if someone does go please let us at GWF know here what you find]

:-) M

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

This thread is very interesting, and informative, thank you.

 

I was puzzled when researching the death of the grandfather of a friend, recorded by CWGC as having occurred on 24 November 1914. The War Diary of the unit (2^nd Battalion Royal Scots) recorded no casualties on that day apart from 5 wounded by a shell, and also some sniping is noted, but there is no mention of deaths or casualties from the sniping. Yet 19 2^nd Battalion RS men died that day according to the CWGC.

In contrast the CWGC record for 23 November records 12 casualties as a result of heavy shelling, and 1 death owing to asphyxiation from charcoal fumes from a brazier in a dug-out, while the CWGC have no record of any 2^nd Battalion RS deaths at all on that day. If the CWGC records might be a day behind, that would possibly account for 13 of the 19 deaths recorded by CWGC as having occurred on 24 November 1914, and there may also have been others on 21 or 22 November (the CWGC has no deaths for 21 November and 1 death for 22 November, while the WD does say that they were in a “dangerous place” at times over those two days). Having said that, the MIC has the KIA as 24 November 1914, and I note that it is suggested above that that is the most reliable source, above the War Diary.

All the deaths recorded on 24 November 1914 and also that on 22 November 1914 are commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial, rather than as burials (which perhaps is a little odd for the man who died from carbon monoxide poisoning?)

Do the experts on this forum think that the large number of deaths recorded on 24 November is the result of amassing deaths which occurred over a few days prior?

 

One other point of interest; I recently came across a death (2^nd Lieutenant Henry Godfrey, 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers) which is recorded at the CWGC as having occurred “between 08 September 1916 and 09 September 1916”, which strikes me as unusual prevarification on the part of the CWGC. At least, I have not seen it on any other entry, though the nature of warfare is such that surely the precise date must often have been uncertain. Actually, it is quite surprising that the date is uncertain in Godfrey’s case, as he was in the Company of my grandfather, Captain Norman Hall, and my grandfather’s diary shows that they were under shellfire in trenches, preparing to attack Ginchy, on 8 September 1916 and most of 9 September 1916, and only “went over the top” at 5.45 pm on 9 September.

Has anyone else come across a CWGC entry that is similarly uncertain as to the date of death?

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

Thank you, GUEST, especially for your piece about 2nd Lieutenant Shawyer.

Inter alia that has highlighted for me that sometimes, even if men were buried, and their graves marked at the time of their death, their graves might subsequently have become involved in the front line, and as a result could be completely lost. Maybe that is what happened in relation to the man who died from carbon monoxide poisoning.

Also, I recall now that in his diary my grandfather mentions seeing the grave of Lieutenant Colonel Walter Latham Loring of the 2nd Battalion Royal Warwickshire Regiment at Méteren on 15 May 1915, but Lieutenant Colonel Loring's death is now commemorated only on the Menin Gate Memorial.

[Matlock1418]

I think the most likely explanation is that the bodies of men who disappeared during in action but were subsequently discovered (that is, before  a War Doary was written up-perhaps up to a week) were recorded as at the date the body was found, rather than the last time they were seen alive.

"Last seen alive" and "Found dead" are certainly in the mix [along with the other hypotheses postulated before] - certain the latter/later does seem to strike a chord [i.e. if found thus confirmed dead on that date] but doesn't wholly explain the double/different date situations - but is wholly, and much more plausible, if there is a wide date between the two

I feel sure the military would only wish to pay a serviceman's pay up to 'Last seen alive' - and the MoP to only pay a pension only from after 'Found dead" dates!

I wonder how they sorted that out??

And which is actually considered the official date of death??? [including for civil purposes too]  An inquest and/or a DC would probably come in handy!

 

On 06/09/2020 at 17:37, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

commemorated on the Ploegsteert Memorial, rather than as burials (which perhaps is a little odd for the man who died from carbon monoxide poisoning?)

Burials from whatever cause of death can also get subsequently destroyed/lost = and thus "No known grave" - 'Missing' and onto a memorial [Edit: as you have just noted in your recent/latest posting ;-)]

On 06/09/2020 at 17:37, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

I recently came across a death (2^nd Lieutenant Henry Godfrey, 2/5^th Lancashire Fusiliers) which is recorded at the CWGC as having occurred “between 08 September 1916 and 09 September 1916”, which strikes me as unusual prevarification on the part of the CWGC.

Interesting indeed.  https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/549388/HENRY GODFREY

Notably it may also be of interest to observe his CWGC Grave Register, Headstone Schedule [sadly no FaG photo of headstone and free view of WGPP photo of headstone https://www.twgpp.org/photograph/view/3390227 is unclear] and web commemoration all indicate 8/9 Sept 1916 - but if you currently download/print-off a CWGC Certificate of commemoration it resoundedly plumps for only 8 Sept 1916!

 

Even more interesting = the 2/5 LF WD at the NA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354878 notably WO-95-2923-2_1 p151-2/248 which has for 8 Sept 1916 "Relief effected by 3.30 AM" and a relatively quiet day "Capt Hedley wounded about 4.30 AM. Slight shelling during the day, very few casualties" [no mention of Godfrey on 8 Sept] but on 9 Sept the LF are involved in an attack - "Sec Lieut Godfrey (Killed)" is at the bottom of the page for 9 Sept 1916

Edit: It is interesting to note I feel that the hand-writing at the bottom is slightly different [possibly later?] and after the listed officers ends with "334 other ranks killed wounded and missing" - one has to wonder about how quickly, how accurately and when such a casualty list entry was made and if any substantiveness it might thus offer [or not!]

 

HG's Officer's service record is at the NA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C697855 [sadly not yet digitised] - I wonder what is in there ???

:-) M

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

On 05/09/2020 at 21:50, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

What evidence do you have for Graves Registration Units having had access to or indeed having accessed soldier's attestation and discharge papers, or officer's service files ?

This is an extremely important point so please be quite specific as to what the evidence is. ...

 

On 05/09/2020 at 22:38, Matlock1418 said:

Can't quote my source [as can't recall it] ...

 

I'm afraid that as a matter of record if you cannot substantiate "GRU reports had access to the original soldier files" then I'm going have to record a long string of question marks against that claim. If anybody can quote solid evidence contradicting my view then I'd be very pleased to hear of it.

 

On 05/09/2020 at 22:45, tharkin56 said:

Again a point and i hadn't thought of if you were on the way to a dressing station and died on the way, would you be 

a) taken somewhere else and logged as having died on that day

b) logged at the dressing station as having died on that day

c) down to individuals at the time

 

Interesting question. Firstly, if the man died on his way to a regimental aid post (RAP) or some dressing station (DS) then technically he should be recorded as having been killed in action. If he got as far as having medical attention then he should be recorded as died of wounds. I would have to suggest that if stretcher bearers were taking a wounded man towards the first point of medical attention and he died then they would quite likely be under orders to abandon the body and return towards the area of action to recover somebody else. Stretcher bearers turning up at aid points with corpses would not have been praised.

 

It is possible. I think the most likely explanation is that the bodies of men who disappeared during in action but were subsequently discovered (that is, before  a War Doary was written up-perhaps up to a week) were recorded as at the date the body was found, rather than the last time they were seen alive. ....

 

I agree that this no doubt happened many many times, but there are even more bizarre cases which expose contemporary "errors" which can cause severe difficulties when dealing with the current authorities. Lieutenant William Frederick MacHutchison [ https://www.irishtimes.com/topics/topics-7.1213540?article=true&tag_person=Tom+Tulloch+Marshall ] caused me a considerable amount of head-scratching until I realised that the GRU had recorded his date of exhumation rather than his date of death, the two being many months apart. The Bertie Jeffs - Ernest Haxton cases were dragged into the mire because the Germans recorded their date of burial rather than their dates of death - and the CWGC - MoD refused for a number of years to recognise that every official record correctly recorded the dates of death - except the GRU / IWGC and hence CWGC records which simply replicated the incorrect German information (thus demonstrating that not even the most cursory of checking was done when the bodies were exhumed post-war).

 

I believe that the scale of errors in the "official" records is probably quite staggering - but whilst pretty obvious cases keep appearing in the various records the bulk are not worth pursuing as they would not be accepted by the CWGC.

Tom

[Guest]

Post removed

 

Edited 7 September , 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I wonder how they sorted that out??

 

    Cheapest solution on the public purse?  As a friend who does air history points out,vis a vis the crash cards at Hendon- officialdom there was more concerned with the kit than the men.

[Matlock1418]

On 06/09/2020 at 21:45, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

On 05/09/2020 at 22:38, Matlock1418 said:

Can't quote my source [as can't recall it] ...

 

I'm afraid that as a matter of record if you cannot substantiate "GRU reports had access to the original soldier files" then I'm going have to record a long string of question marks against that claim. If anybody can quote solid evidence contradicting my view then I'd be very pleased to hear of it.

Tom,

I never made the reference to GRU and soldiers files [telling tales = it was GUEST in post #3 - and he has now already/just replied to you on that]

On 05/09/2020 at 21:50, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

With regards to dates of death - there seems (from experience) to have been no set time of day for diarists to record casualties during the preceding 24 hours

My point when replying to your earlier post was about I thought there was a requirement making a Casualty Return at 0600hrs for the previous 24 hrs - I still can't recall my source = but if you, or others, can help me out there then I would be very pleased to receive the assistance.

You are only citing your experience here, but not a source [other than your own experience - others have that sort of source too] - this is not to get into an argument but this is a discussion forum and several opinions can co-exist

The hope is that the communal mind of GWF can get close(r) to the fact along the way.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

Cheapest solution on the public purse?

Compared to pay - Widow's / dependant's pension - wonder how those fared?

 

I can probably guess [but that would probably suggest an early, rather than later, death I think]

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

36 minutes ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

CWGC - MoD refused for a number of years to recognise that every official record except the GRU / IWGC and hence CWGC records simply replicated the incorrect German information.

Exactly the sort of thing implied when I earlier said I felt many records were 'incestuous'[and may be wrong along the whole way] - and only really brought to light by the likes of works such as yours - quite a job to bring them to light though

[Burial date of, Bertie Jeffs & Ernest Haxton = good job btw]

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

As a friend who does air history points out,vis a vis the crash cards at Hendon- officialdom there was more concerned with the kit than the men.

Yes, it rather does seem that way with the RAF Casualty Cards

Always seems more likely to be "pilot error/fault" than a failure/fault with the machine or the service itself!

But we are rather going 'off-piste' with this line of thought!!

;-/ M

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

But we are rather going 'off-piste' with this line of thought!!

 

   True- But I suspect that the proper line of evidence will have to be got from CWGC, which I suspect(again) may have original paperwork as to how the GRU info. got back from France and Flanders and how it was processed in England- and,of course, vice versa.  I cannot imagine that GRU or even area offices had access to the full run of service files, even if there were 3 copies of each. Could this imply that -perhaps and a big "if" that one copy of a service record (possibly the regimental copy) was kept in France at the end of the war. I only wish I knew anything about how MS3 -Casualties-actually worked. Must be stuff at Kew about this but needles in haystacks looks a more economic use of time on that one.

 

    To come back to some of the original problems- 2 of the examples quoted by the original poster were for casualties on the Somme-were they "First Day" or 2nd July. I have also a local casualty who I am pretty sure was 1st July not 2nd. -2LT Tom Ide, The Essex Regiment. Again,I suspect that the borderline between "KIA" and "DOW" may have been rather fluid on 1st July 1916.

   Martin Middlebrook and the excellent recent Peter Barton documentaries on the Somme have shown what a searing event the Somme "Fist Day" has been on the British consciousness-then and now. Peter Barton is the clearest statement that the Somme was the British Army's greatest defeat- a stalled offensive by the British akin to the "First Day" for the Germans at Kursk in 1943. But both Middlebrook and Barton have concentrated-quite rightly-on the daytime of 1st July 1916,with a heavy emphasis on the early hours of daylight when the main offensive began,

    What I would suggest outright was that the night of 1st-2nd July 1916 was also the worst night in the history of the British Army. 58,000 casualties,(3 times the "worst case scenario" of the medical preparations??), any number of battered battalions to be reinforced, replaced, withdrawn. Literally thousands of men lying wounded in No Mans Land- God knows how many of those crawled back in at night or were retried by stretcher parties-I have a local casualty who crawled out of No Mans Land after 3 days. Is it any wonder the paperwork might have been less than perfect???