Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 24 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2020 Dear headgardener, Yes, that is quite true. I live in sw Germany, but have personally visited the BLs India Office Collections several times. I currently Care for my invalid wife 24/7, but regularly unleash my tame BL researcher who lives around the corner from the British Library. This will be another task for her, once Corona has receded (the Spanish Flu lasted from ca. 1918 to about 1922, and famously took more lives Word-wide than were lost in the Great War)... Having said that, it was kind of you to offer to look on my behalf - Reader's Ticket here, Reader's Ticket there. Apropos Reader's Tickets: they are good souvenirs with an ID photo, and show one, how young one once was, in the days when researching Indian Army Lists was fun! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 24 August , 2020 Share Posted 24 August , 2020 Here's a photo of the reverse of my 15 star (still in the plastic sleeve that I bought it in, plus copy ribbon) . Note that it differs from Swynnerton's and Nelmes' in that there is no 'rank' and it simply says 'CUSTOMS DEPT.' without the addition of the 'M.E.F.' I'm not at all sure what to make of that. I know he doesn't have an MIC so presumably he must be on a Government of India medal roll (assuming that he was from India, of course). Looking again at the description of Nelmes' medals, I'd suggest that the auctioneer was winging it when he wrote it. He's tried to knit together the details from the MIC with the 3 different sets of details impressed on the 3 different medals, but I have to say that I'm not convinced by his conclusions. Personally, I wouldn't recommend simply copying those details for inclusion with your own medals as I feel that his description doesn't make complete sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 24 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2020 Dear headgardener, Many thanks for that. Fascinating! Minus 'W.O.' and 'M.E.F.', as you say, but of course similar and certainly kosher, if the Customs Department list is any yardstick (Swynnerton and Hallahan being juxtaposed!). No sign of Nelmes in that list (whose 15 Star rev scan is of poor quality, but the impressed naming, etc., is the same as for Swynnerton). I, too, found the Nelmes description, say, garbled, leaving one somewhat confused. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 24 August , 2020 Share Posted 24 August , 2020 Yes, I think the auctioneer was attempting to give the impression that he had a clear understanding of Nelmes' service details, but reading and re-reading it I doubt he really does. I'm not at all clear whether he was serving in E Africa with the Machine Gun Coy or with the Customs Department or with both. Was he a Pte, or a Warrant Officer or a 'Civilian Administrator'. Does W.O. actually mean Warrant Officer in this specific instance? I think these medals need a lot more research. Does that Customs List belong to you, btw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 24 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2020 Dear headgardner, Quite! I could not have put it any better... The Customs List was found by my tame British Librar researcher, when she was working on Swynnerton, for me, some years ago. I do not have the exact details to hand, but could ask her, perhaps? The actual meaning of 'W.O.' in this case has always bothered me - but then such conundrums are rife when dealing with the Indian Army. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 25 August , 2020 Share Posted 25 August , 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: The actual meaning of 'W.O.' in this case has always bothered me - but then such conundrums are rife when dealing with the Indian Army. If this discussion centred on the last 50 years I would offer that the answer lies somewhere in Civil Service grades and their perceived equivalence in the Army. Principally these are provided to fairly allocate travel, accommodation and messing to Civil Servants working alongside the military. It is possible that the same applies here - a higher grade of Civil Servant was provided with an equivalent "rank" - in this case broadly "W.O." to generate differential travel, accommodation and messing appropriate to his earned Civil Service grade. Another reality is that at this time they wore uniform and it is not unreasonable to speculate that some visible distinguishing badge accompanied this. To me the the absence of any "rank" on a medal merely suggests a lower Civil Service grade and was therefore not included with an equivalent. Civil Service grades were/are not as numerous as military ranks. Today HEO is equivalent to Major and EO/AO/AA have no military equivalent. I suspect in the bigger British Army of the past it was far more granular. Edited 25 August , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 25 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 25 August , 2020 Dear TullochArd, Many thanks for your succinct thoughts on the subject. I have the feeling that you are on the right track. Customs-wise: the words "Warehouse Officer" comes to mind - or some-such. Be that as it may, the impressed reverse of these various Customs Dept. 15 Stars are undoubtedly scarce (not wanting to used the over-done word 'rare')...! The search continues, of course, unless anybody has a bright idea of 1920s mind-set. Corona-willing, I will despatch my learned researcher to the British Library, and to hell with the cost! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 2 February , 2021 Share Posted 2 February , 2021 How interesting to find this. This man was my Grandmother’s brother! She was the only sister of these brothers and always talked a lot about them. She was Margery Augusta Angelo Thomas nee Swynnerton! She became a nurse on the Eastern Front in Basra in the First World War (1916-18). Frederick Richard (known as Dickie) was her elder brother. I have a memoir of hers which recounts how he once visited her when she was suffering from Spanish flu in Bombay. Their mother was Louisa Angelo Swynnerton who was partly Armenian (a big diaspora of Armenians in India). My grandmother Margery lived until she was 105 and died in 2000! She was an extraordinary person who was both a nurse and a painter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 3 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2021 Dear B Thomas, How kind of you to add such an interesting Postscript. Thank you! Margery was obviously a fantastic person - and tough enough to survive the dreaded Spanish flu (not to mention reaching 105)... I will weave in F. R. Swynnerton's visit to her in Bombay (is the exact date known?), into my on-going MSS. Also that he was known as Dickie! The name Angelo refers to the relations (father and daughter Angelo) pictured attached. I failed to find a photo of Dickie as an Indian Army subaltern of Great War vintage, but Elizabeth (a Swynnerton relation) kindly beamed me Images of him as a Flt Lt., RAFVR... The memoir of Margery would be good to see, especially her references to Dickie! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 3 February , 2021 Author Share Posted 3 February , 2021 Dear All, and B Thomas, I see I had already attached the Flt Lt Swynnerton, RAFVR, photo previously (having neglected to 'turn back the page'!). Here is another one:- Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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