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Remembered Today:

Richard Graham HATFIELD


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2 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Just checked the New Zealand births on the Internal Affairs website, and there is an 1882 Harry Weir birth, parents are Alexander and Agnes. Not sure where the birth was registered at the moment.

 

Edited to add that it was Ashburton, which is just south of Christchurch, so Canterbury.

 

I am totally amazed how you have put this together! How do you guys do it! The Canterbury NZ thing looks like it's true then! 

 

I wonder where he went after 1928? Maybe too old to be in WW2.

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Linda

 

Unfortunately 1882 Henry Weir is another dead end. I subsequently found his WW1 New Zealand Army service record, which showed that he enlisted in New Zealand in May 1917, so not the man calling himself Richard Graham Hatfield who enlisted in the Royal Garrison Artillery a month earlier, in April 1917, on the other side of the world.

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So looking at the dates in the 1898 newspaper clippings that Andy found, he claims to have travelled to the UK on a White Star Line ship, which is subsequently named as the Gothic. It is also stated that he left the London docks on 18 February, presumably this is February 1898, although it could also be February 1897 given his statement about running away from home 16 months earlier in one of the clippings. The SS Gothic was built in 1893 for the White Star Line, and used for the UK-New Zealand run in a joint service with the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Line. This explains why the passenger manifests are headed with the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Line letterhead, and not that of the White Star Line.

 

Searching the UK and Ireland, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960 on Ancestry shows that the Gothic made three round voyages between the UK and New Zealand each year, arriving in the UK on 5 Jan 1897, May 1897, October 1897, and finally on 15 Jan 1898. Looking at these dates, and with the caveat that he was a steward and not a passenger, which means that he would not show up in the passenger manifests, I'm having a bit of a hard time reconciling these arrival dates with his statement that he left the London Docks on 18 February as I cannot see a passenger liner remaining in port for over a month just sitting there doing nothing.  The turn around would have only been a matter of days.

 

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55 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

So looking at the dates in the 1898 newspaper clippings that Andy found, he claims to have travelled to the UK on a White Star Line ship, which is subsequently named as the Gothic. It is also stated that he left the London docks on 18 February, presumably this is February 1898, although it could also be February 1897 given his statement about running away from home 16 months earlier in one of the clippings. The SS Gothic was built in 1893 for the White Star Line, and used for the UK-New Zealand run in a joint service with the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Line. This explains why the passenger manifests are headed with the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Line letterhead, and not that of the White Star Line.

 

Searching the UK and Ireland, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960 on Ancestry shows that the Gothic made three round voyages between the UK and New Zealand each year, arriving in the UK on 5 Jan 1897, May 1897, October 1897, and finally on 15 Jan 1898. Looking at these dates, and with the caveat that he was a steward and not a passenger, which means that he would not show up in the passenger manifests, I'm having a bit of a hard time reconciling these arrival dates with his statement that he left the London Docks on 18 February as I cannot see a passenger liner remaining in port for over a month just sitting there doing nothing.  The turn around would have only been a matter of days.

 

 

 

 

I'm not certain what to make of this....I think I found another earlier conviction for him that included Larceny...unfortunately I can't just find it again, perhaps he gave the 18th of February date to cover his tracks in some way...I'll keep looking.

  Good detective work Tawhiri!!

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8 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Linda

 

Unfortunately 1882 Henry Weir is another dead end. I subsequently found his WW1 New Zealand Army service record, which showed that he enlisted in New Zealand in May 1917, so not the man calling himself Richard Graham Hatfield who enlisted in the Royal Garrison Artillery a month earlier, in April 1917, on the other side of the world.

Think I have got a bit confused😩- the 1881 Charles/ Harry is the correct one  but not the 1882? I was thinking you had managed to confirm Raymond etc was this Charles? Sorry to sound stupid 🤨

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1 hour ago, Lindar said:

Think I have got a bit confused😩- the 1881 Charles/ Harry is the correct one  but not the 1882? I was thinking you had managed to confirm Raymond etc was this Charles? Sorry to sound stupid 🤨

 The 1898 Court cases show that he admits that his real name is Charles Weir, and the Police are satisfied that his father, who they have been in contact with, is a cab driver from Harper Street, Christchurch.

   I've no access to NZ records, but assuming they are similar to UK I would suggest looking for the Weir's on the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census and any electoral rolls or trade directories in between.

Edit....just checked and the NZ census was done every five years, which should help matters.

Edited by sadbrewer
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Look what Ive just found! 

 

So which ship did he sail on !!!!

Looks like he was trying to escape prison in NZ !

Screenshot_20200821-144330_Ancestry.jpg

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The bad news is that the individual enumeration sheets for the pre-1966 censuses in New Zealand were destroyed, only the statistics are available, so this makes the task considerably harder. The good news though is that the 1896 electoral roll for Christchurch has a Robert Weir living at 75 Harper Street, Christchurch, occupation cab proprietor. Will keep on digging to see what else I can find.

 

Edited to add that in 1891 he is living at 38 St Aspah Street, occupation again cab proprietor.

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And just to add to Linda's post, there are further entries in the New Zealand Police Gazette from late 1899 with one from 27 September 1899 stating that Charles Edward Weir had returned from England and surrendered himself to the Christchurch police, subsequently appearing in the Christchurch Supreme Court on 13 November 1899 on charges of false pretences, sentenced to six months probation.

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20 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

And just to add to Linda's post, there are further entries in the New Zealand Police Gazette from late 1899 with one from 27 September 1899 stating that Charles Edward Weir had returned from England and surrendered himself to the Christchurch police, subsequently appearing in the Christchurch Supreme Court on 13 November 1899 on charges of false pretences, sentenced to six months probation.

Was just about to put those on too ! So what ship did he originally come on ?😳

32 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

The bad news is that the individual enumeration sheets for the pre-1966 censuses in New Zealand were destroyed, only the statistics are available, so this makes the task considerably harder. The good news though is that the 1896 electoral roll for Christchurch has a Robert Weir living at 75 Harper Street, Christchurch, occupation cab proprietor. Will keep on digging to see what else I can find.

 

Edited to add that in 1891 he is living at 38 St Aspah Street, occupation again cab proprietor.

Thank you so much 😊 - I'm very much the new girl on the block 😊

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5 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

 The 1898 Court cases show that he admits that his real name is Charles Weir, and the Police are satisfied that his father, who they have been in contact with, is a cab driver from Harper Street, Christchurch.

   I've no access to NZ records, but assuming they are similar to UK I would suggest looking for the Weir's on the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census and any electoral rolls or trade directories in between.

Edit....just checked and the NZ census was done every five years, which should help matters.

Will do

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I can find entries for Robert Weir from 1880-1881 to 1902 in Wise's New Zealand Post Office directory. He starts out as a groom at 38 St Aspah Street, then becomes a cab proprietor before moving to 75 Harper Street, still as a cab proprietor. The last obvious entry for him in the directory in Christchurch is in 1902. It looks as though the move from St Aspah Street to Harper Street was around 1892, in the 1890-91 directory he is still in St Aspah Street, in the 1892-93 directory he is in Harper Street.

 

The electoral rolls tell a similar story, although I can find him as late as 1905-06 living in Collins Street, Sydenham.

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41 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

The bad news is that the individual enumeration sheets for the pre-1966 censuses in New Zealand were destroyed, only the statistics are available, so this makes the task considerably harder. The good news though is that the 1896 electoral roll for Christchurch has a Robert Weir living at 75 Harper Street, Christchurch, occupation cab proprietor. Will keep on digging to see what else I can find.

 

Edited to add that in 1891 he is living at 38 St Aspah Street, occupation again cab proprietor.

When he married as Raymond he gave his father's name on his marriage certificate as Robert Graham Hatfield - so something is true !🙄

4 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

I can find entries for Robert Weir from 1880-1881 to 1902 in Wise's New Zealand Post Office directory. He starts out as a groom at 38 St Aspah Street, then becomes a cab proprietor before moving to 75 Harper Street, still as a cab proprietor. The last obvious entry for him in the directory in Christchurch is in 1902. It looks as though the move from St Aspah Street to Harper Street was around 1892, in the 1890-91 directory he is still in St Aspah Street, in the 1892-93 directory he is in Harper Street.

 

The electoral rolls tell a similar story, although I can find him as late as 1905-06 living at Collins Street, Sydenham.

👍

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Bingo, Charles Edward Weir is in the 1905-06 electoral roll, living in Collins Street, Sydenham, occupation bookkeeper. There is also a Clara Weir, saleswoman, and a Tirzah Weir, housewife, living in the same street, no street numbers unfortunately, but I'd hazard a guess that Robert and Tirzah are the parents, and Clara is a sister.

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Just now, Lindar said:

When he married as Raymond he gave his father's name on his marriage certificate as Robert Graham Hatfield - so something is true !🙄

👍

Wonder what the family story is? Why was Charles getting into trouble at such an early age?😔and then for so many years  😔

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12 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Bingo, Charles Edward Weir is in the 1905-06 electoral roll, living in Collins Street, Sydenham, occupation bookkeeper.

👍😊

Just now, Lindar said:

👍😊

Is it def him then😊👍

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1 hour ago, Lindar said:

Was just about to put those on too ! So what ship did he originally come on ?😳

He came back to New Zealand on the Ruahine, departed London, England on 19 July 1899, bound for Wellington, New Zealand.

 

Edited to add that he arrived back at Lyttleton on the Ruahine on 11 September 1899, as a steerage class passenger.

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Just now, Tawhiri said:

He came back to New Zealand on the Ruahine, departed London, England on 19 July 1899, bound for Wellington, New Zealand.

So he was a bookkeeper until he left for UK again later on when he was in trouble again ! 

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I can also find a death registration for a Tirzah Weir in the last quarter of 1926 in Christchurch, aged 87, so potentially born around 1839. This would have put her in her early 40's when she had Charles. I cannot find a corresponding marriage record to Robert Weir in the New Zealand records.

 

There is a public Weir family tree on Ancestry that appears to refer to this family. This gives us Robert Weir (1840-1915), Thirzah Ann Prior (1839-1926), and five children, Emily (1876-1882, born in Greymouth), Arthur (1877-?, birth place unknown), Clara (1878-1948, born in Christchurch), Herbert (1880-1951, born in Christchurch), and Charles Edward (12 September 1881-?, born in Christchurch). All of the children's birth dates are given, so why can we not find any trace of of them in the official records?

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Good grief this thread has moved forward while I've been at work....well done folks!!

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Charles said he returned to the UK in 1912. Unfortunately there are no obvious matches in the outgoing New Zealand, or incoming UK passenger lists for 1912, either for a passenger named Weir or Hatfield. One wonders what the circumstances were of his departure from New Zealand, I did check the New Zealand Police Gazette around that time period for his known aliases to see if he'd been in trouble again, but nothing obvious jumped out at me.

 

The 1911 electoral roll has a Charles Edward Weir living at the YMCA on Willis Street in the Wellington North electorate in Wellington, occupation is accountant, so this looks to be our man again.

 

The family tree I found on Ancestry has no further details on his life beyond his birth date, and the comment that he died at sea.

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2 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

I can also find a death registration for a Tirzah Weir in the last quarter of 1926 in Christchurch, aged 87, so potentially born around 1839. This would have put her in her early 40's when she had Charles. I cannot find a corresponding marriage record to Robert Weir in the New Zealand records.

 

There is a public Weir family tree on Ancestry that appears to refer to this family. This gives us Robert Weir (1840-1915), Thirzah Ann Prior (1839-1926), and five children, Emily (1876-1882, born in Greymouth), Arthur (1877-?, birth place unknown), Clara (1878-1948, born in Christchurch), Herbert (1880-1951, born in Christchurch), and Charles Edward (12 September 1881-?, born in Christchurch). All of the children's birth dates are given, so why can we not find any trace of of them in the official records?

Hadn't found his mother! How do you do it so quickly🤩 - sorry again for being  stupid but how do you know all this ! 😊

Just now, Lindar said:

Hadn't found his mother! How do you do it so quickly🤩 - sorry again for being  stupid but how do you know all this ! 😊

How do I connect with this family on ancestry🤨

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29 minutes ago, Lindar said:

Hadn't found his mother! How do you do it so quickly🤩 - sorry again for being  stupid but how do you know all this !

Thankfully New Zealand gave women the vote in 1893. I was initially trying to track Robert, but then I went back to try and find Charles Edward in the 1905-06 electoral rolls as I figured that by then he would have been old enough to vote. That lead me to finding him also living in Collins Street, and from there it was a short step to realize that any other Weir's also living in Collins Street had to be related, which then resulted in Clara and Tirzah popping up.

 

29 minutes ago, Lindar said:

How do I connect with this family on ancestry

My answer would be if you don't have an Ancestry account, open a trial account. You will still need to enter your credit card details at the start, but as long as you cancel before the end of the trial period, nothing will be charged to your credit card. This will allow you to message the tree owner, and as I have discovered you can also put a contact e-mail address into the message. The only caveat is that too many people start trees and then never log back in, so even though you have messaged them, you may never get a response. I'm still hoping that I will hear back from someone who I messaged back in April, but who hasn't been on Ancestry since last September.

Edited by Tawhiri
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Screenshot_20200821-192208_Chrome.jpg.051dbf26c31aa0f9111ef57b3540ede7.jpg

Screenshot_20200821-192216_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20200821-192228_Chrome.jpg

25 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Thankfully New Zealand gave women the vote in 1893. I was initially trying to track Robert, but then I went back to try and find Charles Edward in the 1905-06 electoral rolls as I figured that by then he would have been old enough to vote. That lead me to finding him also living in Collins Street, and from there it was a short step to realize that any other Weir's also living in Collins Street had to be related, which then resulted in Clara and Tirzah popping up.

 

My answer would be if you don't have an Ancestry account, open a trial account. You will still need to enter your credit card details at the start, but as long as you cancel before the end of the trial period, nothing will be charged to your credit card. This will allow you to message the tree owner, and as I have discovered you can also put a contact e-mail address into the message. The only caveat is that too many people start trees and then never log back in, so even though you have messaged them, you may never get a response. I'm still hoping that I will hear back from someone who I messaged back in April, but who hasn't been on Ancestry since last September.

Maybe Thirzah didn't marry Robert? An affair? Different women?

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