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Remembered Today:

Richard Graham HATFIELD


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11 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

 

Screenshot_20200817-232040.jpg

 

 

A check of the New Zealand Birth records from 01/01/1875 to 31/12/1885 brings up for:-

 

Hatfield

 

Name not recorded, child of Samuel & Ellen in 1883.

 

Weir

 

No likely matches

 

Unfortunately with the way the New Zealand Government website is setup you cannot search by first name or location, so not possible to identify candidates registered with a different surname. https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/search?path=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Dbirths

 

I suspect the reference to New Zealand was probably a ruse to throw the police off from searching for previous convictions before 1912, (sadbrewer has those likely convictions in 1898) and to make him appear more reliable than he obviously was. (not !)

 

18 hours ago, PRC said:

The next of kin details on his conscription form are also badly washed out - I think it says Robert Hatfield, father and possibly c\o Grant Wilson Esquire, 58 Buckingham Road, London. Richard was not married.

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales I can't even find a 15 Buckingham Street let alone a 58. The 1911 Electoral Register only goes up to 11, however 12 was a lodging house run by a widow on the census and there are lots of individual census returns for many of the lower numbered addresses. From Google Street views it looks like it used to carry on on the north side of John Adam Street, but the area has been redeveloped into the Buckingham Arcade and only a few of the original houses are left.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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No births for a Richard Graham Hatfield in the GRO indexes for the period 1880-1888. There is, however, a birth for a Charles Edward Weir in the same period, registered in the  December quarter of 1885 in Braintree, mother's maiden name is Tompkins. This Charles Edward Weir can be traced in the 1891, 1901, and 1911 censuses, marries in September 1920 in Balham Hill, is living in Sutton and Cheam in 1939, and apparently dies in Worthing in 1954. Not your man I suspect, although he could be the Charles Edward Weir serving as service number 90943 with the Royal Garrison Artillery.

Edited by Tawhiri
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A bit short of time, but I've just found a deserter called Robert Calper ( not suggesting any connection) whose last known address is given as C/o Grant Wilson, 15 Buckingham Street. ( no further information)

 

Edit....Borstal Association

 

 

Screenshot_20200818-182920.jpg

Edited by sadbrewer
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15 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

A bit short of time, but I've just found a deserter called Robert Calper ( not suggesting any connection) whose last known address is given as C/o Grant Wilson, 15 Buckingham Street. ( no further information)

There are two court martial records for an R. J. Calper on Fold3. The first is on 6 August 1917 at Thoresby Camp with the Cambridgeshire T.F. regiment, and the second is on 14 June 1918 at Bere Island with the (R) K. O. Y. L. I.. Unfortunately I don't have a Fold3 subscription so can't provide anymore information than that. 

Edited by Tawhiri
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Was just going to add that I found a 1914 post office directory online that lists a variety of organizations residing at 15-16 Buckingham Street, including the Association of Standardized Knowledge (publishers), the Royal National Pension Fund for Nurses, the Borstal Association, the Peabody Donation Fund, the Morgan Junius S. Benevolent Fund, and the Central Association for the Aid of Discharged Convicts, along with the offices of Geo Wemyss Grant-Wilson, barrister.

 

Edited to add that three of these organizations are connected with nursing, and still going strong today - the Royal National Pension Fund for Nurses, the Peabody Donation Fund, and more correctly, the Junius S. Morgan Benevolent Fund.

Edited by Tawhiri
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On 18/08/2020 at 02:56, Lindar said:

Thanks for your comments. My grandmother in fact met Raymond(as he was then) in a catering contractors in London in 1928. He was her boss!

Lindar

 

When you say Raymond as he was then, do you mean that he was passing himself off as Raymond Graham Hatfield? A Raymond Graham Hatfield shows up in the 1919 electoral register for Lewisham, and there is also the marriage of a Raymond G Hatfield to a Mabel H Thompson in Hammersmith in the first quarter of 1922. No sign of a corresponding birth for a Raymond Graham Hatfield that would fit with these dates of course.

 

On the other hand, if you search for a Raymond Graham Hatfield on the British Newspaper Archive, the first three hits are two reports of bad cheques being passed by an ex-medical student from Canterbury, New Zealand named Raymond Graham Hatfield, apparently also known as Roy Carrington, in Margate in July 1920. The third is a report from the West London Observer of 17 July 1925 of a summons by Mabel Helena Hatfield of Lansdowne Road against Raymond Graham Hatfield of Ladbroke Grove, Notting Hill, who was seeking a separation on the grounds of desertion. The article was apparently titled 'A Case For a Psycho-Analyst', perhaps not too surprisingly given his track record.

Edited by Tawhiri
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Tawhiri

 

Hi - yes I know of him as the information you have given as Raymond. I have met my cousin who also has Raymond as her grandfather - married to Mabel!

War records for Richard identify he is the same man- with one article actually calling him Raymond. I can currently find no DOB for Richard or Raymond but a Charles Edward Weir born in 1885 could be him in Watford area. The NZ connection keeps popping up though. 🙄

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Hi all

Just want to say I appreciate everyones help. I am still working out how this thread of conversation works and have only just seen some of it. I was receiving emails to say there was a comment for me but not anymore. So will check it daily. I so want to discover what happened to my grandfather whatever/ whoever that maybe. Thank you all🥰

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8 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Lindar

 

When you say Raymond as he was then, do you mean that he was passing himself off as Raymond Graham Hatfield? A Raymond Graham Hatfield shows up in the 1919 electoral register for Lewisham, and there is also the marriage of a Raymond G Hatfield to a Mabel H Thompson in Hammersmith in the first quarter of 1922. No sign of a corresponding birth for a Raymond Graham Hatfield that would fit with these dates of course.

 

On the other hand, if you search for a Raymond Graham Hatfield on the British Newspaper Archive, the first three hits are two reports of bad cheques being passed by an ex-medical student from Canterbury, New Zealand named Raymond Graham Hatfield, apparently also known as Roy Carrington, in Margate in July 1920. The third is a report from the West London Observer of 17 July 1925 of a summons by Mabel Helena Hatfield of Lansdowne Road against Raymond Graham Hatfield of Ladbroke Grove, Notting Hill, who was seeking a separation on the grounds of desertion. The article was apparently titled 'A Case For a Psycho-Analyst', perhaps not too surprisingly given his track record.

Hope you can see my reply below - working out how to reply to each of you. 

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12 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Lindar

 

When you say Raymond as he was then, do you mean that he was passing himself off as Raymond Graham Hatfield? A Raymond Graham Hatfield shows up in the 1919 electoral register for Lewisham, and there is also the marriage of a Raymond G Hatfield to a Mabel H Thompson in Hammersmith in the first quarter of 1922. No sign of a corresponding birth for a Raymond Graham Hatfield that would fit with these dates of course.

 

On the other hand, if you search for a Raymond Graham Hatfield on the British Newspaper Archive, the first three hits are two reports of bad cheques being passed by an ex-medical student from Canterbury, New Zealand named Raymond Graham Hatfield, apparently also known as Roy Carrington, in Margate in July 1920. The third is a report from the West London Observer of 17 July 1925 of a summons by Mabel Helena Hatfield of Lansdowne Road against Raymond Graham Hatfield of Ladbroke Grove, Notting Hill, who was seeking a separation on the grounds of desertion. The article was apparently titled 'A Case For a Psycho-Analyst', perhaps not too surprisingly given his track record.

 

Just to follow this up....Raymond Graham Hatfield married Mabel Helena Thompson as you say, their son Edgar J G Hatfield was born in the December quarter of 1922 .

There are a couple of trees on Ancestry that have some potentially useful information but don't seem to have picked up his criminal past and multiple aliases yet.

   One of the trees suggests he had a daughter Peggy in 1929 to a Menna Roberts, I can find no sign of a marriage, so perhaps he was still married to Mabel?

 

Edit....an EGJ Hatfield became an RAF Officer in  1951.

Edit 2...he appears to marry a T Burrows in Southend in 1955.

Edited by sadbrewer
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1 hour ago, sadbrewer said:

 

Just to follow this up....Raymond Graham Hatfield married Mabel Helena Thompson as you say, their son Edgar J G Hatfield was born in the December quarter of 1922 .

There are a couple of trees on Ancestry that have some potentially useful information but don't seem to have picked up his criminal past and multiple aliases yet.

   One of the trees suggests he had a daughter Peggy in 1929 to a Menna Roberts, I can find no sign of a marriage, so perhaps he was still married to Mabel?

 

Edit....an EGJ Hatfield became an RAF Officer in  1951.

Edit 2...he appears to marry a T Burrows in Southend in 1955.

Yes Edgar is my cousins dad and Menna is my nan - Peggy my late mum and yes he was probably married to Mabel still. 🙄

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2 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

  One of the trees suggests he had a daughter Peggy in 1929 to a Menna Roberts, I can find no sign of a marriage, so perhaps he was still married to Mabel?

From what Linda has said this sounds as though it might be her mother. Clearly Mabel was looking for a separation in 1925 from the newspaper article, it's just a question of whether they had divorced by 1929. Mabel seems to have most likely been Mabel Helena Thompson born in the second quarter of 1888 in Dublin South in Ireland, in the 1911 census she is living in St Pancras with her older sister assisting her running a boarding house. There is a second Mabel Helena Thompson born in 1904, who possibly marries in 1931, but she seems too young to have married for the first time in 1922. 

 

5 hours ago, Lindar said:

I can currently find no DOB for Richard or Raymond but a Charles Edward Weir born in 1885 could be him in Watford area. The NZ connection keeps popping up though. 🙄

1885 Charles Edward Weir was born on 8 September 1885, the son of Wallace Rose Weir and Sarah Malpas Weir, nee Tompkins, in Bocking, Essex. The family can be found in the 1891 census living in Streatham, in the 1901 census living in Clapham, and in the 1911 census living in Watford. In 1911, Charles is single and working as a clerk. In September 1920, Charles marries Elsie Elizabeth Collings in Balham Hill, Wandsworth, his father's name is given as Wallace Rose Weir (deceased), his residence at the time of his marriage is 54 Bushey Grove Road, Watford, and his occupation is clerk. In the 1939 England and Wales Register, he is living with Elsie, and a son, Robert, who was born in September 1924, in Sutton and Cheam. There is also a succession of Charles Edward Weir's in the Surrey electoral rolls for the 1930's living at 20 Revell Road in the Epsom electoral district, which matches with the address in the 1939 England and Wales Register. Finally, there is a death registration in the third quarter of 1954 for a Charles E Weir in Worthing, Sussex, with an inferred birth year of 1885/86 from his age at death.

 

Unfortunately I think that Watford Charles Edward Weir is a red herring, as his life seems to be particularly well documented. We might speculate that he is the same Charles Edward Weir serving with the Royal Garrison Artillery as service number 90943, as there doesn't seem to be too many other candidates, but without further proof it must remain that. 

Edited by Tawhiri
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1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

From what Linda has said this sounds as though it might be her mother. Clearly Mabel was looking for a separation in 1925 from the newspaper article, it's just a question of whether they had divorced by 1929. Mabel seems to have most likely been Mabel Helena Thompson born in the second quarter of 1888 in Dublin South in Ireland, in the 1911 census she is living in St Pancras with her older sister assisting her running a boarding house. There is a second Mabel Helena Thompson born in 1904, who possibly marries in 1931, but she seems too young to have married for the first time in 1922. 

 

1885 Charles Edward Weir was born on 8 September 1885, the son of Wallace Rose Weir and Sarah Malpas Weir, nee Tompkins, in Bocking, Essex. The family can be found in the 1891 census living in Streatham, in the 1901 census living in Clapham, and in the 1911 census living in Watford. In 1911, Charles is single and working as a clerk. In September 1920, Charles marries Elsie Elizabeth Collings in Balham Hill, Wandsworth, his father's name is given as Wallace Rose Weir (deceased), his residence at the time of his marriage is 54 Bushey Grove Road, Watford, and his occupation is clerk. In the 1939 England and Wales Register, he is living with Elsie, and a son, Robert, who was born in September 1924, in Sutton and Cheam. There is also a succession of Charles Edward Weir's in the Surrey electoral rolls for the 1930's living at 20 Revell Road in the Epsom electoral district, which matches with the address in the 1939 England and Wales Register. Finally, there is a death registration in the third quarter of 1954 for a Charles E Weir in Worthing, Sussex, with an inferred birth year of 1885/86 from his age at death.

 

Unfortunately I think that Watford Charles Edward Weir is a red herring, as his life seems to be particularly well documented. We might speculate that he is the same Charles Edward Weir serving with the Royal Garrison Artillery as service number 90943, as there doesn't seem to be too many other candidates, but without further proof it must remain 

Why did Richard/ Raymond say he was reverting back to his name of Charles Edward Weir ! Maybe he was a traveller? Where were his parents? Was he an orphan? So many questions! Keep getting more questions then answers!😫

Just now, Lindar said:

Why did Richard/ Raymond say he was reverting back to his name of Charles Edward Weir ! Maybe he was a traveller? Where were his parents? Was he an orphan? So many questions! Keep getting more questions then answers!😫

Peggy was my mother- my grandmother was Menna Roberts. 😳

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1 hour ago, Tawhiri said:

From what Linda has said this sounds as though it might be her mother. Clearly Mabel was looking for a separation in 1925 from the newspaper article, it's just a question of whether they had divorced by 1929. Mabel seems to have most likely been Mabel Helena Thompson born in the second quarter of 1888 in Dublin South in Ireland, in the 1911 census she is living in St Pancras with her older sister assisting her running a boarding house. There is a second Mabel Helena Thompson born in 1904, who possibly marries in 1931, but she seems too young to have married for the first time in 1922. 

 

1885 Charles Edward Weir was born on 8 September 1885, the son of Wallace Rose Weir and Sarah Malpas Weir, nee Tompkins, in Bocking, Essex. The family can be found in the 1891 census living in Streatham, in the 1901 census living in Clapham, and in the 1911 census living in Watford. In 1911, Charles is single and working as a clerk. In September 1920, Charles marries Elsie Elizabeth Collings in Balham Hill, Wandsworth, his father's name is given as Wallace Rose Weir (deceased), his residence at the time of his marriage is 54 Bushey Grove Road, Watford, and his occupation is clerk. In the 1939 England and Wales Register, he is living with Elsie, and a son, Robert, who was born in September 1924, in Sutton and Cheam. There is also a succession of Charles Edward Weir's in the Surrey electoral rolls for the 1930's living at 20 Revell Road in the Epsom electoral district, which matches with the address in the 1939 England and Wales Register. Finally, there is a death registration in the third quarter of 1954 for a Charles E Weir in Worthing, Sussex, with an inferred birth year of 1885/86 from his age at death.

 

Unfortunately I think that Watford Charles Edward Weir is a red herring, as his life seems to be particularly well documented. We might speculate that he is the same Charles Edward Weir serving with the Royal Garrison Artillery as service number 90943, as there doesn't seem to be too many other candidates, but without further proof it must remain that. 

Could be Charles led a double life!🤨

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3 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

From what Linda has said this sounds as though it might be her mother. Clearly Mabel was looking for a separation in 1925 from the newspaper article, it's just a question of whether they had divorced by 1929. Mabel seems to have most likely been Mabel Helena Thompson born in the second quarter of 1888 in Dublin South in Ireland, in the 1911 census she is living in St Pancras with her older sister assisting her running a boarding house. There is a second Mabel Helena Thompson born in 1904, who possibly marries in 1931, but she seems too young to have married for the first time in 1922. 

 

1885 Charles Edward Weir was born on 8 September 1885, the son of Wallace Rose Weir and Sarah Malpas Weir, nee Tompkins, in Bocking, Essex. The family can be found in the 1891 census living in Streatham, in the 1901 census living in Clapham, and in the 1911 census living in Watford. In 1911, Charles is single and working as a clerk. In September 1920, Charles marries Elsie Elizabeth Collings in Balham Hill, Wandsworth, his father's name is given as Wallace Rose Weir (deceased), his residence at the time of his marriage is 54 Bushey Grove Road, Watford, and his occupation is clerk. In the 1939 England and Wales Register, he is living with Elsie, and a son, Robert, who was born in September 1924, in Sutton and Cheam. There is also a succession of Charles Edward Weir's in the Surrey electoral rolls for the 1930's living at 20 Revell Road in the Epsom electoral district, which matches with the address in the 1939 England and Wales Register. Finally, there is a death registration in the third quarter of 1954 for a Charles E Weir in Worthing, Sussex, with an inferred birth year of 1885/86 from his age at death.

 

Unfortunately I think that Watford Charles Edward Weir is a red herring, as his life seems to be particularly well documented. We might speculate that he is the same Charles Edward Weir serving with the Royal Garrison Artillery as service number 90943, as there doesn't seem to be too many other candidates, but without further proof it must remain that. 

 

I'm in agreement Tawhiri.....I'll try and do a roundup of the information later.

 

I think the New Zealand suggestion is probably just part of his cover story...before the days of recorded sound no-one would question his accent, unless he was unfortunate enough to come before a magistrate who had been to NZ.

 

What I did notice from his service record was that he'd had a couple of letters from a Mrs E H  Dixey, Woodgate, Malvern.

   Mrs Dixey was a doctor's wife...could it have been connected with his claim to be a medical student...or is it a relative...or perhaps something connected with borstal and rehabilitation?

Edit...Dr and Mrs Dixey were members of The National Service League, an organisation founded to promote conscription, I wonder if they had a hand in getting him out of prison in order to volunteer.

 

Screenshot_20200819-141754.jpg

 

 

Screenshot_20200819-161657.jpg

Edited by sadbrewer
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1 hour ago, sadbrewer said:

 

I'm in agreement Tawhiri.....I'll try and do a roundup of the information later.

 

I think the New Zealand suggestion is probably just part of his cover story...before the days of recorded sound no-one would question his accent, unless he was unfortunate enough to come before a magistrate who had been to NZ.

 

What I did notice from his service record was that he'd had a couple of letters from a Mrs E H  Dixey, Woodgate, Malvern.

   Mrs Dixey was a doctor's wife...could it have been connected with his claim to be a medical student...or is it a relative...or perhaps something connected with borstal and rehabilitation?

Edit...Dr and Mrs Dixey were members of The National Service League, an organisation founded to promote conscription, I wonder if they had a hand in getting him out of prison in order to volunteer.

 

Screenshot_20200819-141754.jpg

 

 

Screenshot_20200819-161657.jpg

Gosh ! Interesting😳

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A 1914 misdemeanour in Bath in a little more detail, what is interesting is that he asks for offences committed in Ireland to be taken into consideration...perhaps that explains the gap in UK records between his 1898 conviction and his 1914/15 spree.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive 

 

 

 

Screenshot_20200819-174244.jpg

Edited by sadbrewer
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8 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

A 1914 misdemeanour in Bath in a little more detail, what is interesting is that he asks for offences committed in Ireland to be taken into consideration...perhaps that explains the gap in UK records between his 1898 conviction and his 1914/15 spree.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive 

 

 

 

Screenshot_20200819-174244.jpg

Haven't seen this one!

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Another article from his early 'career', plus a new alias, from The Kentish Journal, May 21st, 1898.

It appears to push his birth date back to 1881, and an explanation ( whether or not its true, I can't say ) of the New Zealand Story...can anyone check the Christchurch records?

I'm coming round to think his real name may well be Charles Weir and that Hatfield is just one of his many aliases.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive. 

 

Screenshot_20200820-175506.jpg

Edited by sadbrewer
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He seems to be Harry or Henry Weir in the April 6th, 1898 edition of The Western Times.

 

Screenshot_20200820-182823.jpg

 

A new alias...

 

 

Screenshot_20200820-183319.jpg

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Just checked the New Zealand births on the Internal Affairs website, and there is an 1882 Harry Weir birth, parents are Alexander and Agnes. Not sure where the birth was registered at the moment.

 

Edited to add that it was Ashburton, which is just south of Christchurch, so Canterbury.

 

Edited by Tawhiri
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Just now, Tawhiri said:

Just checked the New Zealand births on the Internal Affairs website, and there is an 1882 Harry Weir birth, parents are Alexander and Agnes. Not sure where the birth was registered at the moment.

 

Hi Tawhiri....The post above says the Police believe his father was a cab driver...does that fit?

Andy

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1 hour ago, sadbrewer said:

Hi Tawhiri....The post above says the Police believe his father was a cab driver...does that fit?

Andy

Unfortunately I cannot see anything more that just the bare bones.

 

I did also check the New Zealand passenger lists on FamilySearch, there are several H Weirs departing New Zealand around that time, but no obvious match for one born in 1882. Will check again later when I have more time.

 

Edited to add that on further checking 1882 Harry Weir enlisted in the New Zealand Army in May 1917, so another red herring I think.

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