Uniform ID

[Norma]

I am trying to find out more about my grandfather. This is the only photograph I have of him. Can anyone shed any light on the uniform. Possibly in the RWF if that helps.

[PRC]

Hi Norma and welcome to the forum.

 

I'll leave it to others to comment on the medals ribbons - there are some real experts here who are very good at working out what the colours should be

 

In the meantime if you can give us his name and a few biographical details it may prove possible to turn up something that will help make more sense of the picture.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[headgardener]

You might get more info if you post his name and any other details you have relating to his army service. 

The photo simply shows a British soldier in standard service dress, with 2 'good conduct' chevrons on his lower L sleeve - which indicates that he had a minimum of 4 years service without being found guilty of having committed an offence. The photo looks as though it was taken post-war as he appears to be wearing medal ribbons for the British War Medal and Victory Medal (but the photo isn't great so it's hard to tell for certain) . If, as seems likely, they are BWM & VM ribbons, this would indicate that he only served overseas sometime between 1916 and the end of the war in 1918. Can't tell what the 'shoulder title' badges are on his epaulettes as they're too indistinct.

There isn't much more to say about the photo though. 

EDIT: There is one other comment to make, which is that he has a'skill at arms' badge on his lower left sleeve (2 crossed rifles), which basically tells us that he had qualified as being a good shot. 

Edited 15 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

The size, shape and positioning of the shoulder title, although blurred, is certainly commensurate with that of the RWF (as per my avatar).  

[Norma]

Thank you for getting back to me and for the welcome to the forum. 

I wish I knew more about him, the only details I have heard down the years were that he served in India at some point, and also but with no evidence of this either, he joined the Black and Tans. Indeed he was in Ireland as married a local girl in the town of Ballymote, Sligo in 1921. His name is the biggest mystery, he used the name John Evans on his marriage certificate, and at some point changed to Davies. He also alternated between John and David and sometimes both. On my dad's birth cert his father is David Davies and my dad's baptism is back to Evans. Why the name change I have no idea, maybe he went AWOL, was he hiding from someone? On the 1939 register he is there as Evans but with Davies written above in green. 

Sorry this is more long winded than I thought. One other thing, he was born in Rhosllanerchrugog, Denbighshire.

Also I suppose it may be possible that he was with the Auxiliaries not the B and T's.

Edited 16 August , 2020 by Norma
I just found out the Auxiliaries were separate from B and T

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Norma said:

On the 1939 register he is there as Evans but with Davies written above in green. 

 

So does the date of birth given there roughly tie up with the age on his death certificate?

 

1 hour ago, Norma said:

Indeed he was in Ireland as married a local girl in the town of Ballymote, Sligo in 1921. His name is the biggest mystery, he used the name John Evans on his marriage certificate, and at some point changed to Davies.

 

So was there a fathers name and occupation given on the marriage certificate (and was he shown as deceased), or was this blank.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Norma]

Maybe scrap the Auxiliary bit as I think they were ex officers

[Norma]

Yes his year of birth on his death cert does match up with the one on the.1939 register. His father on marriage cert is given as Richard A Evans occupation collier not down as deceased. Incidentally he has for his own occupation labourer. I would not have thought he would put anything connected to the military if he was in any units in Ireland. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi Norma, 

If your grandfather's home address was in Rhos, it's just possible that his name might appear on the Absent Voters List for 1918.

The lists usually (in 95%+ of cases ) give the man's name, address, rank, number and unit. It could answer your question.

 

I think, but I'm not certain that a Denbighshire  list survives and can be seen at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth. This is however currently closed  until further notice to researchers.

The list is not available online.

The other problem is that Rhos could have been on the  Wrexham list, and I don't think that one survives.

 

Could you post a higher resolution scan of the photo? It would help the experts confirm what the medal ribbons and shoulder titles say.

If you don't  have a scanner yourself, I'm sure you could ask someone to scan it for you.

 

Edited 16 August , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Norma]

Thank you for the info, I didn't know there was an absent voters list. Will also try and scan the photograph too.

[headgardener]

58 minutes ago, Norma said:

Maybe scrap the Auxiliary bit as I think they were ex officers

 

The Auxiliaries were not the same as the Black & Tans. Auxies were indeed ex officers who formed a newly created paramilitary unit (called the 'Auxiliary Division') of the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC) , the B&Ts were simply reserve constables recruited to reinforce the rank and file of the RIC and they were generally 'other ranks' (not officers) . 

Edited 16 August , 2020 by headgardener

[Norma]

Thank you

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Norma said:

One other thing, he was born in Rhosllanerchrugog, Denbighshire.

 

In case it helps anyone else, the civil parish of Rhosllanerchrugog on the 1911 Census of England & Wales fell within the Civil Registration District of Wrexham for the recording of births, deaths & marriages.

 

However according to UKBMD, the civil parish of Rhosllanerchrugog only came into being in 1895, before that it was part of the civil parish of Ruabon - still covered by the Wrexham civil registration district, but may give another place to search. Both civil parishes would be covered by Wrexham until the local government reorganisation of 1974.

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/wrexham.html

 

5 hours ago, Norma said:

On the 1939 register he is there as Evans but with Davies written above in green. 

 

Ok Norma, put me out of my misery as I've been going round and round in circles with the census \ marriage and baptism records I could find online.

 

The only entry I could find on the 1939 Register that matches what you have written was the first person in the household at what looks to me to be 2 Bwrw Road, Loughor - FMP have indexed it as 2 Bureue Road, Loughor. But that mans' date of birth is shown as the 26th August 1905, and the entry was originally Davies, amended to Evans and then amended back to Davies - all undated so likely to relate to the issue of wartime ID cards and ration books. May be a co-incidence but the death of a John Emlyn Davies, born the 26th August 1905 was recorded in the Llanelli District of Carmarthenshire in Q2 1971.

 

That dob's difficult to reconcile with a man who served in the Great War or even in Ireland in the immediate post-war period. 

(Source: FindMyPast)

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edit - the only likely birth of a John Emlyn Davies in the right period in England & Wales, was in the Llanelli District in Q3 of 1905 - mothers' maiden name was Thomas.

Edited 16 August , 2020 by PRC
Add possible birth details

[Norma]

In the 1939 register he is there as David Evans, he is not on the top of the household list but on the bottom after his wife and sons. They are living at 45 Hightown Rd in Wrexham. The easiest way I found him was via my uncle who was there as a boy his name is John A Evans born about 1930. Easy to find if you put him in and Wrexham as the town. Other family member names are Annie his wife Joseph H, Patrick David and John Albert.

Thank you so much for your time everyone

[headgardener]

My comments earlier regarding the Auxiliaries and the Black & Tans were intended to suggest that his presence in Sligo in 1921 does support the idea that he was a ‘Tan’. Do you have his marriage certificate?

[PRC]

You said

 

14 hours ago, Norma said:

Indeed he was in Ireland as married a local girl in the town of Ballymote, Sligo in 1921. His name is the biggest mystery, he used the name John Evans on his marriage certificate, and at some point changed to Davies.

 And

12 hours ago, Norma said:

His father on marriage cert is given as Richard A Evans occupation collier

And

3 hours ago, Norma said:

Other family member names are Annie his wife

 

The only likely marriage I can see at Ballymote in 1921 was to a Norah Culligan. John Evans occupation is shown as Labourer – I doubt he’d want to hang around as a discharged Black & Tan, so that’s would be another indication that he didn’t join that organisation. Also his father is a Miner, but he is a Richard O. Evans. The marriage was in a Roman Catholic Church.

 

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1921/09217/5334388.pdf

Nora Culligan gives her father as Michael Culligan, a Labourer. She is stated to be of full age so over 21. Checking through the birth records for Sligo there is an Honora Culligan, whose father was Michael Culligan of Ballymote, a Labourer. Honora was born on the 17th November 1890.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02409/1898224.pdf

 

The 1911 Census shows the Culligan family as living at 29, Newtown Street, Ballymote – and they are Roman Catholic.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003250938/

 

There are no entries in the Civil Birth Record for England & Wales for anyone with the surname Evans, mothers’ maiden name Culligan until 1948. Of course their children could have been born anywhere or there could be a clerical error in the centrally prepared index.

 

The 1939 Register entry is also interesting – if John \ David was married to Annie then even if they were estranged, by the social mores of the time, he would have been the first person in the household.

 

(Source: FindMyPast)

 

You have obviously looked in to it, but such a significant change of name, (Nora or Honora to Annie) and date of birth (17th November 1890 vs 19th October 1890), when taken together, would set my alarms bells ringing. Added to which, the pages of the 1939 Register we can see under a freedom of information request were those used by the NHS as their central registry and so records changes of name and date of birth. So unless Annie passed away before the NHS came into being, she never changed her forename or date of birth and when checks were made this information was consistant with what was held for her in the national insurance system. The system was far from infallible, but just another little warning bell.

 

Of couse Nora could be one of the officially closed records in the household  - lines 2 and 6 – but that would mean her death was not known to the NHS by the time they stopped using this registry circa 1992 and she was under 100 at the time the government issued the basic personal details pages in 2011 – which does rule out either of them being Nora.

 

Looking at the children in the household:-

Joseph H Evans, born 11th February 1925.

Patrick D Evans, born 23rd March? 1929

John A Evans, born 9th June 1930

There are no obvious civil birth record matches, but checking those forenames and related quarters brings up an interesting pattern:-

Patrick D Davies, mothers’ maiden name Colligan, was registered in the Wrexham District in Q2, 1929.

John A Davies, mothers’ maiden name Colligan, was registered in the Wrexham District in Q3, 1930.

Norman Davies, mothers’ maiden name Colligan, was registered in the Wrexham District in Q2, 1932. (I suspect he is the closed record on line 6).

 

Elsewhere in the household – the change from David Evans to David Davies is dated by the NHS clerk as being made on the 16th January 1956 and a new NHS card was issued. That would have been not long after his 65th birthday which again may be a co-incidence.

 

Additionally if you follow the line for David Evans across, at least on the FMP scan, you will see part of the first column of the facing page. This was originally blank, but during the war when the Register was used for the issue of ID cards and Ration Books, it seems to have been used to enter Civil Defence Roles. I believe the entry for David Evans possibly reads “Retired 12 years Colour Service??? ARP rescue Pa(rty).

 

That opens up one possibility, if his date of birth of the 10th September 1890 can be believed. He can’t have signed up for 12 years service I believe until he was 18, so September 1908. Twelve years service would take him through to 1920 – the point at which Army records are held by the Ministry of Defence. I believe Ancestry holds a copy of a list originally issued by the MoD showing all records held by them for men born before 1901.

 

Alternatively, if he lied about his age, (and name) in order to join the Army there is one other possible line of enquiry. He may have used the names Evans on his marriage certificate even if he was born a Davies, because he was receiving an Army Disability pension in the name of John Evans. If he was resident in Ireland his army pension papers would have been transferred there. Some of the surviving pension control documents have recently been transcribed onto Ancestry, with the scans of the original document on their sister site, Fold3. It may therefore be worth searching for an Evans resident at Ballymote.

 

Hope some of that helps and isn’t too far off the mark.

 

Peter

 

 

Edited 16 August , 2020 by PRC
Wrong image attached

[headgardener]

10 hours ago, PRC said:

 

The only likely marriage I can see at Ballymote in 1921 was to a Norah Culligan. John Evans occupation is shown as Labourer – I doubt he’d want to hang around as a discharged Black & Tan, so that’s would be another indication that he didn’t join that organisation.

 

 

 

Maybe I’m not keeping up with the pace of developments on this thread, but thought it’s worth mentioning that the ceasefire only came into effect in July 1921 and the RIC weren’t stood down until early ‘22, so there’d be no reason to think he’d have been discharged by the time he married in Sligo in ‘21 (assuming he WAS in the Tans and DID marry in Sligo in ‘21, of course).

Edited 17 August , 2020 by headgardener

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

The prefix letters for the enumeration district for this part of  Wrexham are ZJHE, so anyone resident here in 1939 would have a National Identity number (and subsequently NHS Number) starting with those letters.

The original entry next to John Evans/Davies' name would suggest his ID number was ZJHE8/7

The amendment next to his name seems to begin 'ECI...', either  ECIA or H?...DT, dated 16.1[?].56

It doesn't look as though 'ECI.' was a valid prefix for an enumeration district, so I assume it must mean something else possibly in the Health or Social Security administration world.

 

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts