Cap Badge ID

[jwp2007]

Last one for the moment from todays haul of cards !, could anyone ID the cap badge or maybe belt buckle of this young looking chap ?,

many thanks, John.

 

 

[headgardener]

Church Lads Brigade

[jwp2007]

2 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Church Lads Brigade

Many thanks for that quick reply !, was this brigade linked to the KRRC ?,

cheers, John.

[headgardener]

The CLB was a civilian organization which came into being around the turn of the century. The 16th (Church Lads Brigade) Bn KRRC was a sort of pals battalion which was raised largely ( though I think not exclusively) from Ex-members of the CLB.

[jwp2007]

45 minutes ago, headgardener said:

The CLB was a civilian organization which came into being around the turn of the century. The 16th (Church Lads Brigade) Bn KRRC was a sort of pals battalion which was raised largely ( though I think not exclusively) from Ex-members of the CLB.

Thanks again for the info.

[headgardener]

I’m pretty sure that the 16/KRRC wore standard KRRC cap badges (although I’m not 100% certain on this point), so judging by the CLB badge and the apparent age of the lad in your photo I’d guess that he was CLB rather than KRRC.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, headgardener said:

I’m pretty sure that the 16/KRRC wore standard KRRC cap badges (although I’m not 100% certain on this point), so judging by the CLB badge and the apparent age of the lad in your photo I’d guess that he was CLB rather than KRRC.

You are correct on both counts. 

[jwp2007]

Thanks for the additional info, does the young chaps uniform date this to the great war period ?, thanks,John.

[headgardener]

Up to 1913 members of the CLB wore a dark blue uniform with white belt and cross-strap and a pill-box cap - very much in a Victorian military style. In 1913 they began to wear a version of khaki SD (which is what you see in your photo), but I think this was introduced gradually over about a 4 or 5 year period and continued up to about 1930 or possibly even later, so the backing of the postcard is probably a better way of dating it than the uniform itself.

The CLB was a civilian youth organization with a strong religious affiliation, as I suppose was also true of bodies such as the Scouts, and it formally became affiliated to the KRRC as a Cadet unit in (I think) 1917.

So, your photo shows a boy in CLB uniform dating from some time after about 1913 and, judging by the ‘look’ of the photo, I’d estimate not much later than about 1920. Does he have a name?

[jwp2007]

many thanks again, sadly no name for him, the back of the card is of the split back type,one half marked correspondence the other address only.

Edited 15 August , 2020 by jwp2007

[headgardener]

2 minutes ago, jwp2007 said:

many thanks again, sadly no name for him, the back of the card is of the split back type,one half marked correspondence the other address only.

 

I bought a few CLB cards before realising that they weren’t Soldiers and didn’t appear in the MIC’s. 

 

Some of the split-back cards do provide evidence with which to date photos - sometimes the font, or the postage details, or name and address of photographer can suggest pre-War, wartime, or post-War. It’s very much an imprecise science though........!

[jwp2007]

2 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

I bought a few CLB cards before realising that they weren’t Soldiers and didn’t appear in the MIC’s. 

 

Some of the split-back cards do provide evidence with which to date photos - sometimes the font, or the postage details, or name and address of photographer can suggest pre-War, wartime, or post-War. It’s very much an imprecise science though........!

thanks again, the card has not been postally used and no photographers details.

[Wexflyer]

Can someone enlighten me: Is this an example of the Church Militant as part of the British Army, or is it the other way around?

[headgardener]

44 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

Can someone enlighten me: Is this an example of the Church Militant as part of the British Army, or is it the other way around?

 

Not sure I exactly understand your question. And what is a ‘Church Militant’? The Church Lads Brigade was a civilian youth organization (of which there were several) which was run along quasi-military lines in a similar way to the Scouts. In about 1913 the CLB adopted a uniform (as seen in the photo in the OP) which was based on British army SD. So the photo shows a boy in a civilian organization with a strong religious tradition which had a uniform based on British army service dress and which sought to ‘align’ itself with the military. But these things were true of other patriotic civilian bodies. So, in answer to your question (if I sort of understand it correctly), it is neither an example of the Church playing an official part in the army or the army being an official part of the church. The school Cadet Corps would provide a much better example of integration between the church and the army.

Edited 15 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

The expression church militant is an old, ecclesiastical one HG, and I’m sure the question was a bit of tongue in cheek dry humour.

 

“The Church Militant (Latin: Ecclesia militans), which consists of Christians on earth who struggle as soldiers of Christ against sin, the devil, and "the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places’.”

 

There are also “the Church Penitent” and “the Church Triumphant”, making up rather appropriately a trilogy.

Edited 15 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

...... looks like the standard CLB badge on the OP.  KRRC CLB had a specific badge at some point although I have no idea when it was worn.  

 

Edited 15 August , 2020 by TullochArd

[headgardener]

7 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

...... looks like the standard CLB badge on the OP.  KRRC CLB had a specific badge at some point although I have no idea when it was worn.  

 

 

The badge on your photo isn't 16/KRRC, it's the CLB Cadet badge introduced in 1917 when the CLB became an official KRRC Cadet Corps. 

 

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The expression church militant is an old, ecclesiastical one HG, and I’m sure the question was a bit of tongue in cheek dry humour.

 

“The Church Militant (Latin: Ecclesia militans), which consists of Christians on earth who struggle as soldiers of Christ against sin, the devil, and "the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places’.”

 

There are also “the Church Penitent” and “the Church Triumphant”, making up rather appropriately a trilogy.

 

Very good! But far to subtle for a literalist like me! 

Edited 15 August , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

The badge on your photo isn't 16/KRRC, it's the CLB Cadet badge introduced in 1917 when the CLB became an official KRRC Cadet Corps. 

 

 

Very good! But far to subtle for a literalist like me! 

As fellow of like ilk I do sympathise...  This was a rare occasion when I understood the jest!

Edited 15 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[conijoni]

CLB was founded in 1891 and wore a cap, belt and haversack over civilian clothing. It employed military methods like several other uniformed youth groups of the day. From 1911, the CLB allowed its companies to seek recognition as Cadet Corps. Most did; there were grants available. Khaki Service Dress was introduced in 1913. CLB was affiliated to the KRRC from 1917 until 1930. CLB abolished Cadet recognition in 1936, although by this time only a small number of units were still Cadet Corps. The Brigade celebrates its 130th Anniversary in 2021.

[jwp2007]

7 hours ago, conijoni said:

CLB was founded in 1891 and wore a cap, belt and haversack over civilian clothing. It employed military methods like several other uniformed youth groups of the day. From 1911, the CLB allowed its companies to seek recognition as Cadet Corps. Most did; there were grants available. Khaki Service Dress was introduced in 1913. CLB was affiliated to the KRRC from 1917 until 1930. CLB abolished Cadet recognition in 1936, although by this time only a small number of units were still Cadet Corps. The Brigade celebrates its 130th Anniversary in 2021.

 

Thank you for the additional information.

John.