Gloucestershire Regiment -- date sailed for France?

[Shmorganzola]

Dear All,

 

First post, so please bear with me in my ignorance!

 

My issue is that I have (potentially) conflicting information as to when a soldier left for France (and with which battalion). (I'll present these conflicting points as the 'Versions' below.)

 

Pte Thomas Robinson

Gloucs Rgt, #9977

No Service Record survives (to my knowledge).

 

Version 1

CWGC and other sources record 9977 in the 10th Bn (he died 23-7-16, remembered at Thiepval).

Medal Roll/Index states disembark as 9-Aug-15.

 

Version 2

Death announcement in the local newspaper states that he joined up 2 MONTHS PRIOR to War (presumable early-mid June 1914), and shipped to France in the Winter of 1914 (presumably Oct/Nov 14 onwards).

 

Version 3

Problem is that he could NOT have enlisted in the 10th Bn (it didn't exist before Sept 14) and his service number is too low for the 10th Bn (10,004 onwards).

I therefore assume that he signed up to another Glouc Rgt and transferred.

His low number (and time window) is consistent with joining the 1st/2nd Bn (Regulars).

 

Problems...

The 2nd Bn were in China (from 1913 until Nov 1914). Disembark France Dec 1914.

The 1st Bn disembarked summer Aug 1914.

 

Questions

1. Is my logic about the 1st/2nd Bn sound?
2. If he enlisted in June 1914, would he still have been allocated to a Bn that was stationed abroad?
3. How can we reconcile his EARLY enlistment (June 14) and these potential dismbark dates (Medal Roll, 1st/2nd Bn dates)?

 

Thanks very much for any insight. I'm flummoxed.

 

 

 

 

 

[johntaylor]

Hi, you've clearly done a lot of work on this and are asking all the right questions! I don't have any specific knowledge other than to say that disembarking in France in Aug 1915 isn't necessarily inconsistent with him being in 1st or 2nd Bn, as he could well have been sent out in a group of reinforcements. If he joined up pre-war he may well have been allocated to a home training/depot battalion, normally the 3rd Bn, and then posted to a first-line battalion when the need arose.

 

It may be possible to work out more from his regimental number - hopefully someone with the necessary knowledge will see this message.

 

John

 

 

Edited 14 August , 2020 by johntaylor

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum

 

I would suggest he joined June 1914 and was at the Bristol Depot, mobilising to the 3rd Bn on the outbreak - as per the record of 9978 Waite - see below

 

I would then go with the official records - completing his infantry training with the 3rd Bn before being posted overseas to the 10th Bn on 09/08/1915 as per his medal rolls.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

Image courtesy of FMP

 

[Shmorganzola]

Dear John,

 

Thanks for being my first reply (with no response hitherto, I was fearing first post, first fail !).

 

Appreciate the encouragement and advice. I have zero knowledge of the training procedure, so already that is an additional step for me.

 

Thanks for the thoughts and time.

 

Bw,

 

Anthony

[Shmorganzola]

Dear Russ,

 

Thank you so much for finding the (presumed) adjacent entry to my man and for these words of wisdom.

 

I am a bit confused by his Short Service Record (on FMP). In my ignorance may I ask:

• Waite looks as if he signs up to no particular Bn (just the "Glouc R"). But the numbering suggests the 1st/2nd Bn (Paul Nixon Blog)?
• Am I correct that Waite is not posted to the 3rd until War commences? Did recruits just 'float around' without a Bn until trained?
• Confused by the NUMBERS when Paul Nixon's Blog suggests that the 3rd (Reserve) Bn numbers are in the range 2000-3000.

Sorry to ask.

 

Thanks if you can elaborate.

 

Kind regards,

 

Anthony

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johntaylor]

Hi, I'm sorry the Forum was a little slow to respond but hopefully more people will pile in soon. In the meantime I see there's a book called In the Shadow of Lone Tree: The Forging of the 10th Gloucesters and the Ordeal of the First Division at the Battle of Loos – 1915 by Nick Christian which may well be helpful.  If you search around the Forum you should find more details.

 

All the best, John

[RussT]

With respect to Paul Nixon's site, the service numbers for the 1st/2nd Bn merely refer to the fact that those service numbers were being allotted from the so-called regular series of numbers.

 

Pre-war the 3rd Bn was the Special Reserve Bn, which ran its own number series (as you have mentioned).

 

Once war broke out the 3rd Bn became a reserve (training) Bn which men would be posted to even if they had joined on regular terms of engagement and had already been allotted a number from the regular series.

 

You don't enlist into a specific Bn - you enlist into the Regiment at the Depot and then are posted to a Bn. Normally, I understand he would have been posted from the Depot to the UK-based regular Bn for training (in this case the 1st Bn) but it looks like war intervened before this happened in his case. As the 1st Bn needed to deploy, he was posted to the 3rd Bn for training as this was its planned role from the outbreak.

 

I hope I have explained that ok !

 

Regards

 

Russ

[PRC]

15 minutes ago, Shmorganzola said:

I am a bit confused by his Short Service Record (on FMP). In my ignorance may I ask:

• Waite looks as if he signs up to no particular Bn (just the "Glouc R"). But the numbering suggests the 1st/2nd Bn (Paul Nixon Blog)?
• Am I correct that Waite is not posted to the 3rd until War commences? Did recruits just 'float around' without a Bn until trained?
• Confused by the NUMBERS when Paul Nixon's Blog suggests that the 3rd (Reserve) Bn numbers are in the range 2000-3000.

 

My understanding is that a recruit in peace time would have gone to a depot for his basic training before being posted to his Battalion. Having enlisted in the Regular Army, as witnessed by the service numbers for Robinson and Waite, they would have gone to the Regular Army battalions of the Regiment, the 1st and 2nd.

 

Also in peacetime the 3rd Battalion was more of an organization than a full strength Battalion. It would carry on it's establishment the Special Reservists who after a period of training would return to their civilian employment.

 

The process was interrupted by the outbreak of War. The Battalion in the UK would have been brought up to strength with recalled Regular Army reservists. With the 2nd Battalion in China, there would probably have been more than enough Reservists to fill the ranks in the 1st Battalion, so the surplus, along with the mobilised Special Reservists and any new recruits who finished their training would have been part of an activated 3rd Battalion, which would also than have moved to its UK defence position - in the case of the Glosters that was Abbey Wood, Woolwich.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/gloucestershire-regiment/

 

The 3rd Battalion then became a source of replacements drafts for other Battalions of the Regiment, including cadres of experienced Regular Army soldiers for the new Kitchener Army Battalions. They would also have provided the men to bring the 2nd Battalion up to war strength when it returned to the UK later on in the autumn.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[kenf48]

How old was he?

 

He could not be deployed on active service overseas until aged nineteen, is he the adopted Thomas Robinson b.1898 in Canada?

 

I see he was awarded the Military Medal LG 19.02.1917

 

[Shmorganzola]

Thanks to everyone here piling in. Fabulous information, thank you, Russ and Peter. Book suggestion by John is super, didn't know about this, will definitely look at this.

 

Kenf48. A bit staggered and highly intrigued that you know about Thomas's adoption and Canadian birth. May I ask how you know this? I've been trying to work this out for years, and have (I think) got there. Any additional information welcomed.

 

Thanks one and all, appreciated.

 

Anthony

 

 

[Shmorganzola]

Kenf48.  Forgot to say that he was born in Sept 1896, so he was really only 17 when he signed up. I guess he must have lied about his age ?

 

Didn't know about the age restriction on overseas action -- excellent to know that. Even if he said he was 18 at attestation, then that would totally explain why he may not have gone till the following Aug 1915.

 

Thanks.

A

 

[Promenade]

Anthony,

 

I am a volunteer WW1 researcher at the Soldiers of Glos Museum.

 

Firstly I presume you are aware that Thomas Robinson was awarded the MM (gazetted 19/2/17) - there is no Schedule number but this gazette is associated with late awards for deeds which took place during the Battle of the Somme - the 'D' I understand is that the man was dead (tipping the hat to Howard Wilkinson for his stirling work on MMs).

 

 

 

 

Taking the number question you pose first. Numbers in the 2000-3000 are men who enlisted under the terms of the Special Reserve (see Long Long Trail). If Thomas had enlisted under these terms he would have a number about 204x. His number is associated with a regular enlistment and is confirmed by the newspaper report in the Glos Journal which you infer that you have already seen:-

 

 

"News has reached his parents from the War Office that their son, Thomas Robinson, Gloucester Regiment, 28, Archdeacon-street, was killed on July 23rd. He joined the Gloucesters two months before war broke out and went to France in the winter of 1914. He came home on leave last Easter for a few days, and has seen almost continuous fighting during the time he spent in France. He was 20 years of age, and was employed at the Match Works before enlisting. He was an old scholar of the Archdeacon-street Council School, leaving with a seven years record of unbroken attendance."

 

Looking at enlistment dates - the following is a snippet from the Regimental database and shows men who enlisted as a Regular (the  Glos Regt had two regular Bns the 1st and 2nd):-

 

 

 

Turning to the date Thomas crossed to France:-

 

The 1914/15 medal roll:-

 

This was the date the 10th Bn crossed to France

 

 

The British War & Vic Roll:-

 

 

This shows that Thomas only served abroad with the 10th Bn.

 

This is consistent with the fact that when war broke out he would have still been training at Horfield Barracks in Bristol - any gaps in the Regulars would have been filled with experienced Reservists and Special Reservists prior to 1914 embarkation. He was most probably mobilised to the 3rd Glos (which acted as a 'feeder Bn') and then posted to the 10th Bn which was formed in September 1914 - it is surprising that Thomas appears to have remained a Private - although it is not unusual for men to turn down a promotion. The newspaper report states that he went abroad in 1914 which is almost certainly incorrect.

 

I will leave it to you to download the 10 Glos War Diary (which is free at the moment) - the URL is :-

 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7351896

 

As stated previously Thomas almost certainly served throughout the actions at Loos on 25/9/15 when the 10th Glos lost 162 officers and men killed with countless others wounded (based on the ration of 1 man killed to 2.89 wounded - indicates a total of 468 officers and men wounded). Such casualty figures would have severely affected the fighting ability of the Bn which would have required rebuilding mainly with new recruits. I can highly recommend 'In the Shadow of Lone Tree" by Nick Christian (make sure you get the latest edition) for an indepth description and analysis of what happened that day.

 

The following is an extract from 10 Glos Regt War Diary:-

23/7/16
12.30 a.m. We attacked a portion of the new 'switch' line the enemy had dug in front of & due south of MARTINPUICH. 'B' Company attacked on the right & 'D' Company on the left. A few men of 'B' Company got in on the right, but we failed to take our objective. 'B' Company, however, seized and held Point 17 with the aid of reinforcements from the remaining companies. This point proved most valuable enabling us as it did to observe the enemy’s line which had not previously been under our observation. In this action, 2/Lt. E.A. NAISH was killed. 2/Lieuts A.J. MAYBREY, L.N. THORNTON, G.E. KIRBY & F. GLEAVE are missing, whilst Lieut. T.A. STREET & 2/Lieuts. J. MACDONALD & H. WILCOX were wounded. In addition, we lost 11 other Ranks killed, 58 other ranks wounded & 70 other ranks missing.

 

 

Thomas Robinson is commemorated on the Gloucester War Memorial:-

 

 

 

Edited 14 August , 2020 by Promenade

[RussT]

Had a look at his contemporaries in the medal rolls ...

 

9970 disembarked 11/11/1914 to 1/Bn

9972 disembarked 16/10/1915 to 7/Bn

9973 disembarked in 1916+ to 1/Bn

9974 disembarked 13/08/1914 to 1/Bn

9976 disembarked 18/06/1915 to 7/Bn

9979 disembarked 26/05/1915 to 1/Bn

9980 disembarked 11/11/1914 to 1/Bn

 

So there might have been a credible possibility of him being posted overseas in the "winter of 1914" but he evidently wasn't - and it might have been because of his age as per Ken's post.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[Shmorganzola]

11 hours ago, RussT said:

Had a look at his contemporaries in the medal rolls ...

 

9970 disembarked 11/11/1914 to 1/Bn

9972 disembarked 16/10/1915 to 7/Bn

9973 disembarked in 1916+ to 1/Bn

9974 disembarked 13/08/1914 to 1/Bn

9976 disembarked 18/06/1915 to 7/Bn

9979 disembarked 26/05/1915 to 1/Bn

9980 disembarked 11/11/1914 to 1/Bn

 

So there might have been a credible possibility of him being posted overseas in the "winter of 1914" but he evidently wasn't - and it might have been because of his age as per Ken's post.

 

Regards

 

Russ

Thanks again, Russ, your help has been invaluable both as a resource and a tutorial .

 

Bw,

 

Ant

 

[Michelle Young]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Shadow-Lone-Tree-Gloucesters-Division/dp/0952837811/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=in+the+shadow+of+Lone+Tree&qid=1597488109&s=books&sr=1-2
Ant,

This is the copy you need, it’s the revised version. Nick is a good friend, I can contact him to see if he has any copies?

Michelle 

[Shmorganzola]

Thanks Michelle, that is a great pointer. I will peruse and get back to you, if I may. All praise to Nick.

 

Bw,

Ant

 

[johntaylor]

The Forum turns up trumps again. It's amazing how much knowledge is on here.

 

All the best, John

[Shmorganzola]

You're not wrong John, I am staggered ! These people are amazing.

 

Bw,

 

Ant

 

[kenf48]

20 hours ago, Shmorganzola said:

Kenf48.  Forgot to say that he was born in Sept 1896, so he was really only 17 when he signed up. I guess he must have lied about his age ?

 

 

Maybe, but I make that rising eighteen in June 1914, at best he only shaved three months off his age on enlistment.  His declared age was his 'Army age'. At eighteen he could legitimately join the Regular Army, and three months basic training would take him to his eighteenth birthday when he could be deployed in the "Home' Battalion.

 

To put that in to context I don't think the Army would have been too bothered, when Britain went to war the Regular Army was 9,000 men under establishment, recruiting was alway s difficult and this shortage was most acute in the Home Battalions.  The chart at Post 12 shows how few men were recruited each year.  The average was about 200.  When war was declared the rapid expansion of the Army meant those with even a modicum of training were given a stripe and placed in charge of groups of recruits.  Boy scouts for example, who had a little knowledge of drill found themselves in charge of much older men. The formation of the Kitchener or Service Battalions meant the whole recruitment process was overwhelmed and it became much easier for under age soldiers to enlist.

 

Prior to the war men could join the Territorial Force at seventeen and to bring their Battalions up to strength for active service the nineteen rule was often ignored.  So much so that in December 1914 there was an Army Order which stressed that,"no-one in the Territorial Force is to be allowed to proceed to join the Expeditionary Force unless he is medically fit, fully trained, and is 19 years of age or over".  Although the directive was aimed at the TF it applied aacross the board and merely sought to bring them into line with the existing Army policy. A couple of months later the TF was told if it was recruiting for active service, as opposed to Home service, men needed to be nineteen.

 

As for the Regular Army in August 1914 men could still enlist at eighteen, but for the Service Battalions it was nineteen.

 

We don't know when Pte Robinson was posted to the 10th Battalion but when sent on active service if he declared he was eighteen in June 1914 he was nineteen when he embarked for France in August 1915.

[Shmorganzola]

Thank you, Ken, this is very helpful indeed.

 

Bw,

A