John Johnson of Liverpool, Did He Serve

[Wexflyer]

In 1911, on the English census, I see:

John Johnson, aged 32, born Bootle, Lancashire, a railway porter. Living in Argos St, Kirkdale, Liverpool.

He was married 3 years at that point.

Clearly of military age in 1914, so I wonder if he served?

Thanks

 

p.s. The English National Archives seem to have an ability to detect Fenian ancestry, as it has refused to let me register on several occasions, so searching the ENA medal index is problematic.

 

Edited 12 August , 2020 by Wexflyer

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I'm not sure the MICs will solve your problem, as there are about 1400 John Johnson's.

A better  free image is available on Ancestry anyway. You just need to register etc. etc..

You need a service record to the the man down linking his name  address  and unit/ number.

Is there an AVL for that area?

Or references  in local newspapers maybe?

[Kath]

What is his wife's name?

[corisande]

24 minutes ago, Kath said:

What is his wife's name?

 

A lot of people from Wexford

 

[Kath]

Mary?

NOT the J. Johnson I found in the Liverpool Echo.

 

[johnmelling1979]

Hello

 

As a relation of one of the Johnson branches of Bootle\Liverpool - tread carefully as researching the Johnson family inc military stuff has been nightmare for over 20 years 

[corisande]

As has been said , there are a lot of John Johnson in Liverpool at that time

 

I thought that this man looked promising, though I am sure there are alternatives

 

His Royal Navy record is on Ancestry - click

 

Born Kirkdale . May 1 in 1878 ( census was 1 Apr 1911, so this man would have been 32)

Died  22 Sep 1914 on HMS Aboukir was sunk by German Submarine

[Wexflyer]

5 hours ago, Kath said:

What is his wife's name?

 

Kate or Catherine Walsh, born 14/12/1880

[Wexflyer]

5 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I'm not sure the MICs will solve your problem, as there are about 1400 John Johnson's.

A better  free image is available on Ancestry anyway. You just need to register etc. etc..

You need a service record to the the man down linking his name  address  and unit/ number.

Is there an AVL for that area?

Or references  in local newspapers maybe?

 

Hmn. I had no idea the name was so common....

[Wexflyer]

3 hours ago, corisande said:

As has been said , there are a lot of John Johnson in Liverpool at that time

 

I thought that this man looked promising, though I am sure there are alternatives

 

His Royal Navy record is on Ancestry - click

 

Born Kirkdale . May 1 in 1878 ( census was 1 Apr 1911, so this man would have been 32)

Died  22 Sep 1914 on HMS Aboukir was sunk by German Submarine

 

I believe John and Kate went on to have three more children beyond the one on the 1911 census, so he probably lived past 1914.

May have died at some point in a railway accident, though not certain of that.

Edited 12 August , 2020 by Wexflyer

[Wexflyer]

Maybe another way to put the original question:

- Working on the railway, was his job potentially reserved, or not. (Assuming he progress up the usual railway career path, so he did not remain a railway porter).

- I had no idea that there were so many John Johnsons.

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Wexflyer said:

Maybe another way to put the original question:

- Working on the railway, was his job potentially reserved, or not. (Assuming he progress up the usual railway career path, so he did not remain a railway porter).

- I had no idea that there were so many John Johnsons.

 

 

I'm not sure that railway employees as a whole were a reserved occupation.

A lot ended up in the RE railway companies.

(1405, including some J. Johnsons in the Army alone. Goodness knows how many in the Navy,or Mercantile Marine...)

[davidbohl]

By 1914 Gores Liverpool, there are no Johnson's in Argos Road, and no record anywhere else of John Johnson, railway porter.

Moved out of the city ?

Dave

Edited 12 August , 2020 by davidbohl

[PRC]

6 hours ago, corisande said:

 

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales this family were recorded living at 34 Argos Road, Kirkdale, Liverpool. That address fell within the West Derby Civil Registration District for Births, Marriages and Deaths,

 

7 hours ago, Kath said:

What is his wife's name?

 

1 hour ago, Wexflyer said:

Kate or Catherine Walsh, born 14/12/1880

 

1 hour ago, Wexflyer said:

I believe John and Kate went on to have three more children beyond the one on the 1911 census, so he probably lived past 1914.

 

In the decade after the 1911 Census, the Civil birth records for England & Wales shows 14 children registered with the surname Johnson, mothers' maiden name Walsh - and three are in the West Derby District. While that could be a co-incidence, the three are Julia M. Johnson, (Q4, 1911), John Johnson, (Q3, 1915) and and George H. Johnson, (Q1, 1920).

 

If these three are the children of John and Kate, then shows he (probably) survived the war.

 

Julia doesn't help resolve this query, but if the father was an early volunteer, the birth certificate for the 1915 born John should pick this up.

And while there are lots of reasons for a five year gap between children, when that gap can be conceived as potenially stretching from the start of 1915 to spring 1919, one potential explanation is that the husband was away somewhere where home leave wasn't an option.

 

On the 1939 Register there is a widowed Catherine Johnson, born 5th December 1880, who was recorded as the first person in the house at 47 Herbert Street, Liverpool. While the date of birth doesn't quite match up, the second person in the household is John Johnson, born 24th August 1915 and the third is Harold Johnson, (was that the H in George H.?), born  8th February 1920. Relationships aren't shown in the Register, but both young man were unmarried - John was a Builders Labourer, and Harold was a Slicing & wrapping Baker - and they are very likely to be the sons of Catherine.

 

Does it sound like the right family?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[davidbohl]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

living at 34 Argos Road

 

That's interesting, no return for No. 34 in 1914, have the whole family done a runner ?

 

 

 

[corisande]

I got lost a bit on who his wife was. Census says Mary and OP says Catherine Walsh

 

If she is Catherine Walsh, then  the man is surely John Johnson - service record click.  Born Bootle, and with wife Catherine Walsh, married 1907

[Wexflyer]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales this family were recorded living at 34 Argos Road, Kirkdale, Liverpool. That address fell within the West Derby Civil Registration District for Births, Marriages and Deaths,

 

 

 

 

In the decade after the 1911 Census, the Civil birth records for England & Wales shows 14 children registered with the surname Johnson, mothers' maiden name Walsh - and three are in the West Derby District. While that could be a co-incidence, the three are Julia M. Johnson, (Q4, 1911), John Johnson, (Q3, 1915) and and George H. Johnson, (Q1, 1920).

 

If these three are the children of John and Kate, then shows he (probably) survived the war.

 

Julia doesn't help resolve this query, but if the father was an early volunteer, the birth certificate for the 1915 born John should pick this up.

And while there are lots of reasons for a five year gap between children, when that gap can be conceived as potenially stretching from the start of 1915 to spring 1919, one potential explanation is that the husband was away somewhere where home leave wasn't an option.

 

On the 1939 Register there is a widowed Catherine Johnson, born 5th December 1880, who was recorded as the first person in the house at 47 Herbert Street, Liverpool. While the date of birth doesn't quite match up, the second person in the household is John Johnson, born 24th August 1915 and the third is Harold Johnson, (was that the H in George H.?), born  8th February 1920. Relationships aren't shown in the Register, but both young man were unmarried - John was a Builders Labourer, and Harold was a Slicing & wrapping Baker - and they are very likely to be the sons of Catherine.

 

Does it sound like the right family?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Peter,

You Sir are a genius!

Yes, that is the correct family. I personally knew both the mother (Kate) and one of the sons, Harold. I would not have recognized the 1920 birth of George H. as his, as he was always known as Harold.   He was still a baker in the 1960s.

They gave me a nice Great War period toy artillery piece (18 pdr, I think), which was spring actuated and could fire "shells".  Probably what started my interest in the Great War!

That Kate was a widow by 1939 would fit with what i remember being told - that John Johnson met with an accident on the railway.

- Edward

Edited 12 August , 2020 by Wexflyer

[Wexflyer]

16 minutes ago, corisande said:

I got lost a bit on who his wife was. Census says Mary and OP says Catherine Walsh

 

If she is Catherine Walsh, then  the man is surely John Johnson - service record click.  Born Bootle, and with wife Catherine Walsh, married 1907

 

Someone got confused or simply made a mistake on the 1911 census. The Mary Walsh shown on the 1911 census was a sister of Kate (Walsh) Johnson - there could not be two Mary's in the same family. In any case, I knew Kate Johnson, and I knew one of her sons. There is no doubt as to her correct name.  I have her birth and marriage registration, etc.

Looks like I will have to sign up for Ancestry again. I miss the days I had free access via work!

 

In the meantime, can you say what regiment/corps he served in and in what capacity?

Edited 12 August , 2020 by Wexflyer

[corisande]

1. He enlisted 3 Sep 1914 in Kings Liverpool

2. Previously served in Kings R Rifles

3. Discharged no longer physically fit on 16 Mar 1916

4. Married Catherine Walsh 25 Dec 1907 in Liverpool

5. It gives 3 children born while serving in WW1

6. It has his 1898 to 1906 service details

[corisande]

 

 

This Ancestry link gives all his WW1 pension and medal records - click . They have 7 records of one sort or another

 

 

[PRC]

29 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

That Kate was a widow by 1939 would fit with what i remember being told - that he met with an accident on the railway.

 

Could be a long-winded way of doing it, but as you have the 1939 address from the Register, and could get the 1920 address from Harolds' birth certificate you could work backwards or forwards through the electoral register to see when John last appears in the Electoral Register at the same place as Kate, giving you a much narrow period to check for newspaper reports on coroners inquests or the accident itself, and possible probate reports in the Probate Calendar.

 

4 minutes ago, corisande said:

1. He enlisted 3 Sep 1914 in Kings Liverpool

2. Previously served in Kings R Rifles

3. Discharged no longer physically fit on 16 Mar 1916

 

So the 1915 birth certificate for the younger John Johnston should tie in with this quite nicely.

 

31 minutes ago, Wexflyer said:

Someone got confused or simply made a mistake on the 1911 census. The Mary Walsh shown on the 1911 census was a sister of Kate (Walsh) Johnson - there could not be two Mary's in the same family.

 

John Johnson completed the Census return, this was the first one actually completed by a member of the household.  A lot of years experience have taught me that if you can't even get your wife's name right you are in a whole heap of trouble - right up there with being caught out when asked for her birth date and the date of your wedding - no wonder he volunteered in September 1914 Mary Walsh the boarder however is shown as married - which must make her at the very least Kates' sister-in-law, not sister.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Wexflyer]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

 

John Johnson completed the Census return, this was the first one actually completed by a member of the household.  A lot of years experience have taught me that if you can't even get your wife's name right you are in a whole heap of trouble - right up there with being caught out when asked for her birth date and the date of your wedding - no wonder he volunteered in September 1914 Mary Walsh the boarder however is shown as married - which must make her at the very least Kates' sister-in-law, not sister.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Perhaps John was having improper thoughts about his sister-in-law....

 

As for Mary Walsh being Kate's sister-in-law, not her sister - not so. Her sister, Mary Walsh, married James Walsh, a sailor, in Wexford, on 1/August/1907, and then moved to Liverpool shortly afterwards.  Walsh is a common name, and there were quite a few Walsh-Walsh marriages in Wexford. In fact, it was because of the presence of Mary and her children that I recognized that this was the correct Johnson family in the census, and that "Mary" being given instead of Kate was simply a mistake.

 

Thank you all again.

 

Edited 12 August , 2020 by Wexflyer

[PRC]

1 minute ago, Wexflyer said:

As for Mary Walsh being Kate's sister-in-law, not her sister - not so. Her sister, Mary Walsh, married James Walsh, a sailor, in Wexford, on 1/August/1907, and then moved to Liverpool shortly afterwards.  Quite a few Walsh-Walsh marriages in Wexford. In fact, it was because of the presence of Mary and her children that I recognized that this was the correct Johnson family in the census, and that "Mary" being given instead of Kate was simply a mistake.

 

Schoolboy error on my part - genius to dunce in six posts on this thread - is that a forum record

 

Cheers,

Peter

[corisande]

The Fold 3 Pension Card seems to indicate that his widow Catherine got a pension from 4 Mar 1929

 

If it were an accident that caused his death, I would have thought that the Liverpool Echo would have carried a report, but I cannot get anything

[Wexflyer]

Somewhat off topic, but there was a weekly (at least) boat from Wexford to Liverpool throughout the 1800's, until around 1920 at least. My grandfather and great-grandfather took that boat to see relatives in Bootle. Freemen of Wexford were also automatically freemen of Liverpool - a reputed historical fact I confirmed myself in an 18th century grant of freedom I came across in an Oxford library.  Until the railways reached Wexford in the 1870s (very late), it would have been as easy/easier to reach Liverpool as Dublin or many other parts of Ireland.