Gas Victims

[Paul D]

Good evening,

 

My Gt Uncle (55 DAC) died from the effects of being gassed on 12 Sep 1917, at No.1 Canadian Gen Hosp, Etaples, and is buried in the CWGC there.

 

I would dearly love to know when and where he was gassed, through a process of back-tracking. Is this feasible (even in ‘ball park’ terms)?

 

I know 55DAC went into action on 31/07/17 at Vlamertinghe (55th Div at Wieltje). I also know they stayed in the line after 55th was relieved on 4th Aug, and were attached to 61st Div in late Aug.

 

I’m open to any suggestions / estimates.

 

Thank you in anticipation. 

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

You should probably start by downloading 55th and 61st DACs war diaries - WO95/2915/4 and WO95/3045/1 respectively.

Tom

[mancpal]

It’s only a guess but if he died at Etaples it’s likely he was gassed/injured somewhere else and finally succumbed at Etaples which served as an IBD but also a hospital dealing those heading for the hospital ships home, some of which sadly didn’t make it

[PRC]

23 hours ago, Paul D said:

My Gt Uncle (55 DAC) died from the effects of being gassed on 12 Sep 1917, at No.1 Canadian Gen Hosp, Etaples, and is buried in the CWGC there.

 

A name and service number may help surface some more details - there are all kinds of clever souls on the forum who have looked into such things and may be able to add a bit more science to the guesstimate.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Guest]

Seconding what  Peter has to say- if you have his name,rank,serial number then it might be easier.  If he served with a Divisional Ammunition Column, then he should have been in the Royal Field Artillery or Royal Garrison Artillery.  We can work out which artillery brigade and go to the war diary. Artillery war diaries are unusual in that many of them list artillery casualties by name and date, As a gas casualty, he is likely to have been gassed several days before his date of death, unless very close indeed to Etaples. The army would not move gas casualties who were likely to die that day- but many died a horrible death 3 or days later at a base hospital of some sort-well behind the line. A lot of gas casualties of 1917-1918 were sent back to Canadian or American hospitals, as they tended to be better equipped and have the more modern treatments.

[mancpal]

"as a Gas casualty". Mentioned in post 3 but dont think everyone died  3 days later, it could have been weeks, months or in the case of one of my great Uncles over 20 years. Can't imagine any sort of casualty who wasn't expected to last the day would have been evacuated anywhere in preference to those who may live to fight another day. 

Edited 12 August , 2020 by mancpal

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

On 12/08/2020 at 21:07, mancpal said:

It’s only a guess but if he died at Etaples it’s likely he was gassed/injured somewhere else ...

 

… he is likely to have been gassed several days before his date of death, unless very close indeed to Etaples.

 

 Er - the likelihood of being gassed at or close to Etaples would be … ?

Tom

[kenf48]

The War Diary for No 1 Canadian General Hospital shows admissions, but no mention of gas.  The page below is from the 5th September, there were 89 admissions on the 4th.

The 8th looks interesting such a large number suggests something happened, though men were being conveyed to Etaples from all over the Front. They record just twenty five deaths for the month.

Image courtesy of

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=2005096

 

DD7W9WF6R33

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

 Er - the likelihood of being gassed at or close to Etaples would be … ?

Tom

 

  Yes, somewhat low. But you never know-one of my local casualties died of gas poisoning incurred on Iphigenia  on the Zeebrugge Raid.  Many years ago before "Watchdog" a firm of solicitors in the English Midlands advertised a post saying they were "within a couple of gunshots of the sea". A critic pointed out that, given the range of Big Bertha, then a couple of gunshots could by anywhere on the English mainland.

[kenf48]

13 hours ago, PRC said:

A name and service number may help surface some more details - there are all kinds of clever souls on the forum who have looked into such things and may be able to add a bit more science to the guesstimate.

 

Dvr William Liddle 115139 RFA Died of wounds (gas)

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/503237/WILLIAM LIDDLE/

[Paul D]

16 hours ago, PRC said:

 

A name and service number may help surface some more details - there are all kinds of clever souls on the forum who have looked into such things and may be able to add a bit more science to the guesstimate.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks Peter,

 

Driver 115139 William Liddle, RFA (55 DAC). 
 

Regards

 

 

17 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

You should probably start by downloading 55th and 61st DACs war diaries - WO95/2915/4 and WO95/3045/1 respectively.

Tom

Thanks Tom, I’ve already tried this. Sadly, they’re very scant. 

[Paul D]

Seconding what  Peter has to say- if you have his name,rank,serial number then it might be easier.  If he served with a Divisional Ammunition Column, then he should have been in the Royal Field Artillery or Royal Garrison Artillery.  We can work out which artillery brigade and go to the war diary. Artillery war diaries are unusual in that many of them list artillery casualties by name and date, As a gas casualty, he is likely to have been gassed several days before his date of death, unless very close indeed to Etaples. The army would not move gas casualties who were likely to die that day- but many died a horrible death 3 or days later at a base hospital of some sort-well behind the line. A lot of gas casualties of 1917-1918 were sent back to Canadian or American hospitals, as they tended to be better equipped and have the more modern treatments.

On 13/08/2020 at 00:45, kenf48 said:

The War Diary for No 1 Canadian General Hospital shows admissions, but no mention of gas.  The page below is from the 5th September, there were 89 admissions on the 4th.

The 8th looks interesting such a large number suggests something happened, though men were being conveyed to Etaples from all over the Front. They record just twenty five deaths for the month.

Image courtesy of

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=2005096

 

DD7W9WF6R33

The War Diary for No 1 Canadian General Hospital shows admissions, but no mention of gas.  The page below is from the 5th September, there were 89 admissions on the 4th.

The 8th looks interesting such a large number suggests something happened, though men were being conveyed to Etaples from all over the Front. They record just twenty five deaths for the month.

Image courtesy of

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=2005096

 

DD7W9WF6R33

Thank you very much

On 11/08/2020 at 22:12, Paul D said:

Good evening,

 

My Gt Uncle (55 DAC) died from the effects of being gassed on 12 Sep 1917, at No.1 Canadian Gen Hosp, Etaples, and is buried in the CWGC there.

 

I would dearly love to know when and where he was gassed, through a process of back-tracking. Is this feasible (even in ‘ball park’ terms)?

 

I know 55DAC went into action on 31/07/17 at Vlamertinghe (55th Div at Wieltje). I also know they stayed in the line after 55th was relieved on 4th Aug, and were attached to 61st Div in late Aug.

 

I’m open to any suggestions / estimates.

 

Thank you in anticipation. 

Good evening,

 

My Gt Uncle (55 DAC) died from the effects of being gassed on 12 Sep 1917, at No.1 Canadian Gen Hosp, Etaples, and is buried in the CWGC there.

 

I would dearly love to know when and where he was gassed, through a process of back-tracking. Is this feasible (even in ‘ball park’ terms)?

 

I know 55DAC went into action on 31/07/17 at Vlamertinghe (55th Div at Wieltje). I also know they stayed in the line after 55th was relieved on 4th Aug, and were attached to 61st Div in late Aug.

 

I’m open to any suggestions / estimates.

 

Thank you in anticipation. 

 

Thank you very much. 

[Paul D]

Thanks for all your suggestions and responses. I’m sorry, but I should have included his details:

 

Driver 115139 William Liddle, RFA, 55 DAC

 

You’re all very kind. 
 

Thanks again. 
 

Paul

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Paul D said:

Driver 115139 William Liddle, RFA, 55 DAC

 

I couldn’t readily find Driver Liddle either in locally reported newspapers available on FindMyPast, or in The Times.

 

My thought process was that if the gassing had occurred any length of time before he died then there might well be two entries – one covering the initial gassing. If there was just the one then increases the likelihood he was gassed relatively shortly, (week-10 days) before he died.

 

So I turned to Geoffs Search Engine to look for men of the 55th Divisional Ammunition Column who had died, initially starting from the 31st July 1917, the opening day of 3rd Ypres (Passchendaele).

 

28th August 1917

 

Driver 701034 Henry Fitzmaurice, buried Vlamertinghe Military Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/142324/

SDGW – Killed in action

 

Driver 98450 Alfred Parris, buried Vlamertinghe Military Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/142977/

SDGW – Killed in action

 

 

7th September 1917

 

Driver 166112 Douglas MacDonald, buried Mendingham.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/86713/

On SDGW as Douglas Anderson McDonald, Died of Wounds. Resident and enlisted Paisley.

FMP have a Medical Progress Report which includes Private 166112 D.McDonald., 55 DAC. RFA. This was the update from 12 Casualty Clearing Station for the 7th September 1917. His condition was Wounded Gassed Lac.Shell, (i.e. Lachrymatory aka Tear Gas), he died on this day.

Of the other updates from that C.C.S. there is a Sapper 112515 R. Forster, 171 Tunnelling Company, who was similarly wounded and died on that day.

The CWGC Historial Information for the Mendingham Military Cemetery includes:-

Mendinghem, like Dozinghem and Bandaghem, were the popular names given by the troops to groups of casualty clearing stations posted to this area during the First World War. In July 1916, the 46th (1st/1st Wessex) Casualty Clearing Station was opened at Proven and this site was chosen for its cemetery. The first burials took place in August 1916. In July 1917, four further clearing stations arrived at Proven in readiness for the forthcoming Allied offensive on this front and three of them, the 46th, 12th and 64th, stayed until 1918.

No surviving service records.

 

 

9th September 1917

 

Driver 92326 F.S.G. Ravani, buried Mendingham.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/87131/

SDGW as Frederick Stephen George Ravani, Died of Wounds. Born Westminster, enlisted Bloomsbury.

No surviving service records.

 

 

11th September 1917

 

Driver 805711 T.F. Shaw, buried Mendingham.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/87297/

SDGW as Thomas Frederick Shaw, Died of Wounds. Born Burslem, Staffordshire, enlisted Shelton, Staffordshire.

No surviving service records.

 

The death of the RE Sapper on the 7th along with the Canadian Hospital admissions on the 8th probably increases the odds, (already high) that this was a German attack rather than an accident handling munitions. Possibly the area were the two units were serving was hit with gas on the 6th/7th September but thast's speculation at this point.

 

The LLT has this historical note for the 61st Division.

 

The Battle of Langemarck 16-18 August 1917)*

* the battles marked * are phases of the Third Battles of the Ypres

In late August and early September the Division was involved in the efforts to push the line forward at positions around Schuler Farm and Aisne Farm near Kerselaar.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/61st-2nd-south-midland-division/

In late August 1917 this also seemed to involve unsuccessful attacks towards the German strongpoint, Gallipoli farm.

 

Hopefully the War diaries might narrow things down as to the date and circumstances of the gassing,

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

7 hours ago, Paul D said:

Thanks Tom, I’ve already tried this. Sadly, they’re very scant. 

 

Have you tried the Commander Royal Artillery (often just "CRA") files at TNA ?

For the dates you need >

55th Div CRA - WO95/2911

61st Div CRA - WO95/3037

 

When you hit problems like this a wide-ranging search of files for units in the same geographical area at the relevant time can pay dividends - at least up to and including Corps level. General rule is; don't look = don't find. (If it was easy they'd all be doing it - in fact some of "them" think they are ).

Tom

[Paul D]

39 minutes ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

 

Have you tried the Commander Royal Artillery (often just "CRA") files at TNA ?

For the dates you need >

55th Div CRA - WO95/2911

61st Div CRA - WO95/3037

 

When you hit problems like this a wide-ranging search of files for units in the same geographical area at the relevant time can pay dividends - at least up to and including Corps level. General rule is; don't look = don't find. (If it was easy they'd all be doing it - in fact some of "them" think they are ).

Tom

Thanks Tom. I haven’t, no, but will give that a try.

 

Much appreciated. 

[kenf48]

The war diary of the 2/3 South Midland Field Ambulance (61st Division) notes that on the 10th September "A mustard gas shell exploded in a trench at the entrance to the advanced dressing at Wieltje in the afternoon. Small quantities of gas travelled into the mine shaft continuously afterwards."  The ADS was located in the mine shaft at Wieltje map reference Sheet 28,

C.28.a.9.5

 

Events seemed to take a more dramatic turn the following day, the 11th when 22 men from the ambulance were evacuated to the Corps Dressing Station at Red Farm and 18 put to rest locally. It was noted the most common symptom was conjunctivitis with oedema of the eyelids.

But the really interesting and perhaps most relevant footnote to the entry for that day is,

"A large number of casualties from gas amongst the RFA was evacuated from the area near WIELTJE."

 

I can find no other entries relating to gas attacks in any of the other Field Ambulance diaries, nor in the Diary of the ADMS 61st Division

 

As Peter's research shows gas shells were being employed by the Germans in the first couple of weeks of September. It may be it was counter battery fire rather than a set piece attack.

 

8 hours ago, PRC said:

Lac.Shell, (i.e. Lachrymatory aka Tear Gas)

 

I think you will find that was also mustard gas. The eye irritation is described in the war diary.

As evidenced above and in the scientific analysis (http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/mustardg.htm) one of the earliest effects was intense eye irritation.  It was persistent and did not disperse easily it clung to clothing and, as noted in the diary hung in the air.

[Paul D]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

 

I couldn’t readily find Driver Liddle either in locally reported newspapers available on FindMyPast, or in The Times.

 

My thought process was that if the gassing had occurred any length of time before he died then there might well be two entries – one covering the initial gassing. If there was just the one then increases the likelihood he was gassed relatively shortly, (week-10 days) before he died.

 

So I turned to Geoffs Search Engine to look for men of the 55th Divisional Ammunition Column who had died, initially starting from the 31st July 1917, the opening day of 3rd Ypres (Passchendaele).

 

28th August 1917

 

Driver 701034 Henry Fitzmaurice, buried Vlamertinghe Military Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/142324/

SDGW – Killed in action

 

Driver 98450 Alfred Parris, buried Vlamertinghe Military Cemetery.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/142977/

SDGW – Killed in action

 

 

7th September 1917

 

Driver 166112 Douglas MacDonald, buried Mendingham.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/86713/

On SDGW as Douglas Anderson McDonald, Died of Wounds. Resident and enlisted Paisley.

FMP have a Medical Progress Report which includes Private 166112 D.McDonald., 55 DAC. RFA. This was the update from 12 Casualty Clearing Station for the 7th September 1917. His condition was Wounded Gassed Lac.Shell, (i.e. Lachrymatory aka Tear Gas), he died on this day.

Of the other updates from that C.C.S. there is a Sapper 112515 R. Forster, 171 Tunnelling Company, who was similarly wounded and died on that day.

The CWGC Historial Information for the Mendingham Military Cemetery includes:-

Mendinghem, like Dozinghem and Bandaghem, were the popular names given by the troops to groups of casualty clearing stations posted to this area during the First World War. In July 1916, the 46th (1st/1st Wessex) Casualty Clearing Station was opened at Proven and this site was chosen for its cemetery. The first burials took place in August 1916. In July 1917, four further clearing stations arrived at Proven in readiness for the forthcoming Allied offensive on this front and three of them, the 46th, 12th and 64th, stayed until 1918.

No surviving service records.

 

 

9th September 1917

 

Driver 92326 F.S.G. Ravani, buried Mendingham.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/87131/

SDGW as Frederick Stephen George Ravani, Died of Wounds. Born Westminster, enlisted Bloomsbury.

No surviving service records.

 

 

11th September 1917

 

Driver 805711 T.F. Shaw, buried Mendingham.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/87297/

SDGW as Thomas Frederick Shaw, Died of Wounds. Born Burslem, Staffordshire, enlisted Shelton, Staffordshire.

No surviving service records.

 

The death of the RE Sapper on the 7th along with the Canadian Hospital admissions on the 8th probably increases the odds, (already high) that this was a German attack rather than an accident handling munitions. Possibly the area were the two units were serving was hit with gas on the 6th/7th September but thast's speculation at this point.

 

The LLT has this historical note for the 61st Division.

 

The Battle of Langemarck 16-18 August 1917)*

* the battles marked * are phases of the Third Battles of the Ypres

In late August and early September the Division was involved in the efforts to push the line forward at positions around Schuler Farm and Aisne Farm near Kerselaar.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/61st-2nd-south-midland-division/

In late August 1917 this also seemed to involve unsuccessful attacks towards the German strongpoint, Gallipoli farm.

 

Hopefully the War diaries might narrow things down as to the date and circumstances of the gassing,

 

Cheers,

Peter

This gives me lots to investigate further. 
 

Many thanks indeed Peter. 

[Paul D]

12 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The war diary of the 2/3 South Midland Field Ambulance (61st Division) notes that on the 10th September "A mustard gas shell exploded in a trench at the entrance to the advanced dressing at Wieltje in the afternoon. Small quantities of gas travelled into the mine shaft continuously afterwards."  The ADS was located in the mine shaft at Wieltje map reference Sheet 28,

C.28.a.9.5

 

Events seemed to take a more dramatic turn the following day, the 11th when 22 men from the ambulance were evacuated to the Corps Dressing Station at Red Farm and 18 put to rest locally. It was noted the most common symptom was conjunctivitis with oedema of the eyelids.

But the really interesting and perhaps most relevant footnote to the entry for that day is,

"A large number of casualties from gas amongst the RFA was evacuated from the area near WIELTJE."

 

I can find no other entries relating to gas attacks in any of the other Field Ambulance diaries, nor in the Diary of the ADMS 61st Division

 

As Peter's research shows gas shells were being employed by the Germans in the first couple of weeks of September. It may be it was counter battery fire rather than a set piece attack.

 

 

I think you will find that was also mustard gas. The eye irritation is described in the war diary.

As evidenced above and in the scientific analysis (http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/chemical/mustardg.htm) one of the earliest effects was intense eye irritation.  It was persistent and did not disperse easily it clung to clothing and, as noted in the diary hung in the air.

I’m extremely grateful for this - thanks so much. 

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 20:57, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

… When you hit problems like this a wide-ranging search of files for units in the same geographical area at the relevant time can pay dividends - at least up to and including Corps level. General rule is; don't look = don't find. (If it was easy they'd all be doing it - in fact some of "them" think they are ).

 

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 00:13, kenf48 said:

The war diary of the 2/3 South Midland Field Ambulance (61st Division) notes that on ...

 

Cast the net wide - its so very often the difference between "look-ups" and real research.

Tom

[Paul D]

On 16/08/2020 at 21:10, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

 

 

Cast the net wide - its so very often the difference between "look-ups" and real research.

Tom

Thanks Tom