Jackie Webb Posted 11 August , 2020 Share Posted 11 August , 2020 Hi! Only just joined and came across a few people talking about the WW1 War which took place on 24//7/20 in Mesopotamia.. I’m sorry just wanted to reply to people who were chatting about it.. My G Uncle Private Timothy Smith Died in this campaign.. Iv been trying to find him for my dad for many years and been doing my family tree.. Last few days I found out so much information and found records.. The people in the conversation were Mark Hone, 8055 Bell. Steve Broomfiels, Rob Green, Philip Wilson & Smith 565.. I do recognise that number Smith 565?? Jackie 🥰🙏🥰 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 11 August , 2020 Share Posted 11 August , 2020 Could you post what records you've found please to save others repeating your efforts, e.g you may know he is commemorated on the Basra War Memorial but the rest of us don't know (well I just found out!) Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 11 August , 2020 Share Posted 11 August , 2020 A simple google search reveals that he was killed during an Iraqi revolt and on that day Capt Henderson of the 2nd Manchesters earned his posthumous VC to add to his DSO and MC. There is likely to be much written about Henderson and his bravery on the day your ancestor also perished but please post anything you have because there is frequently more to be unearthed, Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 11 August , 2020 Share Posted 11 August , 2020 Hi and welcome to the forum. Was this the thread you meant to post a comment in Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Webb Posted 12 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2020 14 hours ago, PRC said: Hi and welcome to the forum. Was this the thread you meant to post a comment in Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Webb Posted 12 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2020 14 hours ago, mancpal said: Could you post what records you've found please to save others repeating your efforts, e.g you may know he is commemorated on the Basra War Memorial but the rest of us don't know (well I just found out!) Simon 14 hours ago, PRC said: Hi and welcome to the forum. Was this the thread you meant to post a comment in Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Webb Posted 12 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2020 Hi Peter! Thankyou only just finding my way round on this forum and how strange accidentally came across this when I found my Great Uncle.. Iv only found that postcards saying he was listed in this war..The only information was growing up according to my dad was that he joined up when only 15yrs because he lied about his age,. I found when he was born 1902.. he died on 24/7/20 so would have been 18yrs just a kid really.. I would love to find out if he had any medals and if there is a buriel plot.. I’m just waiting to hear back from CWC.. My dad is 94yrs and doing all this for him because he has always talked about his uncle.. No one talked much in those days only said he was in a war and went missing! 😟 It says ‘ Killed In Action ‘ so presume he didn’t go missing? A lot of brave young men but would imagine a lot very inexperienced having just joined up! Jackie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Webb Posted 12 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2020 14 hours ago, mancpal said: Could you post what records you've found please to save others repeating your efforts, e.g you may know he is commemorated on the Basra War Memorial but the rest of us don't know (well I just found out!) Simon Hi Simone! I found the information about my Great Uncle from local archives where I live, the town where your relative lived will have records.. then you google WW1 and search war records.. I went through almost 1500 to find mine! I’m not sure if he was buried yet but hoping the CWC will find out for me., All I know he was 18yrs when he died and apparently lied about his age when joining up, though not mention of date of birth on his record,, I do know when he was born because of the census on doing my family tree.. Jackie 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 12 August , 2020 Share Posted 12 August , 2020 Jackie, Private 3515878 T. Smith has no known grave and as @mancpal stated in post 2, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has him permanently remembered on the Basra War Memorial. He will most likely have missed the Great War altogether given his age. He is remembered by the CWGC amongst the dead of the Great War simply because they have a legal cut-off date of July 1921. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1659524/T SMITH/ His seven digit number was part of the Army renumbering scheme that took place in 1920 - the first time a soldier would have a unique number that would stay with him throughout his career, rather than change if he moved regiments \ corps. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/ As such there is a strong possibility that his service records will still be held by the Ministry of Defence. See here for how to apply for a copy. https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records Although I can't see a Medal Index Card for him on either the National Archive website or Ancestry I suspect he will have qualified for the India General Service Medal with the relevant clasp - sorry not really my area of interest so hoepfully somebody responding to this thread or the other one will be able to confirm. Hope that helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 12 August , 2020 Share Posted 12 August , 2020 He may or may not have joined up under age, I think at 18 he could serve overseas so he might just have squeezed in. The CWGC website indicates he is commemorated on the Basra War Memorial panels 31 and 64 so it seems he has no known grave. Theres plenty on the web about the recent condition of Basra Memorial and Cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 12 August , 2020 Share Posted 12 August , 2020 2 minutes ago, mancpal said: He may or may not have joined up under age, I think at 18 he could serve overseas so he might just have squeezed in. After the introduction of the Military Service Act of 1916, the options for joining up underage pretty much evaporated. Unless he swapped ID's with someone, he would have been called up at 18. Under the MSA he shouldn't have gone overseas to a Theatre of War until he was 19. Lloyd George held out against military pressure at the end of Passchendaele to release the cohort then in training aged over 18 and a half, but had to concede after the initial huge losses of the first phase of the German Spring Offensive. This was only a short term thing, so by the summer of 1918 had reverted to 19. Post War with the end of the Military Service Act, I suspect the Regular Army reverted to regular recruiting and sending 18 year olds overseas. If he was born in 1902, (as opposed to his birth being registered in Q1 of 1902), then other than joining up as Boy Soldier, (limited opportunity and UK service only), realistically speaking 1920 is the earliest he joined the Regular Army. However if the MoD has a surviving record, that is where the answers are likely to be. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Webb Posted 12 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2020 51 minutes ago, PRC said: Jackie, Private 3515878 T. Smith has no known grave and as @mancpal stated in post 2, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has him permanently remembered on the Basra War Memorial. He will most likely have missed the Great War altogether given his age. He is remembered by the CWGC amongst the dead of the Great War simply because they have a legal cut-off date of July 1921. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1659524/T SMITH/ His seven digit number was part of the Army renumbering scheme that took place in 1920 - the first time a soldier would have a unique number that would stay with him throughout his career, rather than change if he moved regiments \ corps. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/ As such there is a strong possibility that his service records will still be held by the Ministry of Defence. See here for how to apply for a copy. https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records Although I can't see a Medal Index Card for him on either the National Archive website or Ancestry I suspect he will have qualified for the India General Service Medal with the relevant clasp - sorry not really my area of interest so hoepfully somebody responding to this thread or the other one will be able to confirm. Hope that helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Webb Posted 12 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2020 Hi Peter! Thankyou so much you have been very helpful.. So he is remembered on the Remembrance Wall? that’s good isn’t it.. So would they have buried him in a unmarked grave do you think? Do you think there would be a photo of him somewhere? Sorry asking a lot of questions! Just so curious and find it all fascinating.. 😀 Jackie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Webb Posted 12 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2020 Thankyou Simone just found his name on Peters Link.. 🙈 Thankyou both of you so much for all your help & information.. My dad will be pleased! when I show him.. Many Thanks Jackie 🙏😀🙏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 12 August , 2020 Share Posted 12 August , 2020 25 minutes ago, Jackie Webb said: So he is remembered on the Remembrance Wall? that’s good isn’t it.. So would they have buried him in a unmarked grave do you think? Sadly there may not have been anything to bury. Alternatively he may originally have had a grave but it's location may have subsequently been lost, or found to be empty when the CWGC team, (or its predecessor, the Imperial War Graves Commission), went to register the grave on taking over responsibility from the Army. Unfortunately Iraq was, (and remains), a dangerous region and the graves of war dead are not regarded as sacrosanct. During WW2 there was also a pro-German local government who secretly fostered anti-British feeling and acts. It's unlikely there will be an ID picture in his Army file, if it still exists. The most likely source if the family doesn't have one is going to be local papers. However you should always bear in mind that there simply may not have been a picture. BTW you seem to have bold stuck on permanently on your posts, you can quote selectively by just highlighting the relevant text (and probably Simon is only known as Simone at weekends) Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 12 August , 2020 Share Posted 12 August , 2020 Only in silver sparkly frock, usually between certain hours on a Sunday afternoon worn only without my carers permission. (but he doesn’t notice every week) lots of love, Chantelle- Lianne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 21 August , 2020 Share Posted 21 August , 2020 Timothy Smith joined up in 1920 His first number was 52617 then 3512878. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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