Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 9 August , 2020 Share Posted 9 August , 2020 Dear All, I have this scan of an MC group, which is self-explanatory, medal-wise: 4th class Nile and so on - with the note 'Hart Samuel Elijah'. Can anyone enlighten me? The group would not go amiss in my Collection, actually (but everybody would say that!)! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 9 August , 2020 Share Posted 9 August , 2020 Agree, a VERY NICE group Kim! Thanks for posting! Best...Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 Full entitlement? I'd expect to see a victory medal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 Cant see in London Gazette after a cursory search Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 22 minutes ago, Coldstreamer said: Full entitlement? I'd expect to see a victory medal That was my first thought, but could be an inter-war MC together with wartime BWM for the usual overseas theatres (unlikely not to have received an inter war campaign medal, though). I suppose that some form of gallant conduct while serving in a 'non active' theatre such as India is theoretically possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 10 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2020 Dear All, I have just found my copy of "Soldiers of the Nile", by Henry Keown-Boyd. This has answered my own question (which is rather absurd, but there we are):- HART, Samuel Born, 1867; Died 12 Oct 1933 Decorations: MC, Nile 4th Class Regiment or Corps: Royal Engineers Date of Commission: 1916, after many years in the ranks Final British Rank: Lieutenant Dates of Egyptian Army Service: 1903-08 (as an NCO); 1916-24 Final EA Rank: Bimbashi Active Service with EA: Darfur 1916 (MC); Lau Nuer, 1917; Nyima Hills, 1917-18; Aliab Dinka, 1920 Remarks: Hart, who had retired as a Sergeant and joined the Sudan Government Public Works Department, was given a temporary commission in 1916. He was made a Saghkologast (Adjutant-Major) in the EA, one of the very few British officers to hold this rank. See "The Royal Engineers in Egypt and the Sudan" by E. W. C. Sandes, DSO, MC. Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 (edited) So, his BWM was for service with the Egyptian Army? And what about his M.C.? When was it gazetted? EDIT: just noticed, 1916! Edited 10 August , 2020 by headgardener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 M.C. in the King's Birthday Honours List 1917 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30111/supplement/5480 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 10 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2020 Dear Harry, Many thanks for finding the Gazette entry for the 1917 Military Cross for T/Lt Hart. No doubt his was an obscure action - viewed in the greater scheme of things, in the middle of the Great War. Who holds the group now, one wonders? Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 Would his Service Record as an OR in the RE be available? Would shed some light on his service prior to entering the EA. I am not clear on the MC award. Presumably he rec'd the award as an officer serving in the EA, yet he is shown as a British officer in the 'Soldiers of the Nile.'? & would his final Soudan medal be named? Thanks, Bryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 His Order of the Nile, 4th Class was gazetted 19 April 1921 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32300/page/3186 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 10 August , 2020 Admin Share Posted 10 August , 2020 1 hour ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said: Dear Harry, Many thanks for finding the Gazette entry for the 1917 Military Cross for T/Lt Hart. No doubt his was an obscure action - viewed in the greater scheme of things, in the middle of the Great War. Who holds the group now, one wonders? Kindest regards, Kim. Kim As Harry posted, it was a King's Birthday award so it wasn't for gallantry as you'd expect. My (probably incorrect) understanding is that before the MC, there was only the DSO available for officers' gallantry and service. The scale of the war made so many officers meeting the DSO criteria it was becoming 'devalued'. The MC was introduced for gallantry but eventually the DSO was to be awarded only to senior officers and the MC could also be awarded as a "good service" recognition for junior officers hence the Birthday and New Year lists of MCs. Anyway, he received the medal in Feb 1918 in Khartoum. Image source: TNA Ref WO389/15 1 hour ago, RNCVR said: Would his Service Record as an OR in the RE be available? Bryan All the service records I've seen for officers commissioned from the ranks include the OR service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 10 minutes ago, spof said: All the service records I've seen for officers commissioned from the ranks include the OR service. Agreed, but you can still find some O/R service records for officers among the bulk of WW1 O/R services papers (I guess it would be the 'burnt' series). Of the top of my head I can remember a KOSB officer whose WO374 contained his Lovat's Scouts O/R's papers, and then found another identical set of his O/R's papers among the 'burnt' series. Btw, regarding what you said about MCs for meritorious service or whatever, are they only in the NY and Birthday lists? I thought that if there wasn't a citation in the LG then it wasn't a gallantry award - or maybe the NY and B'day lists were the only ones without citations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBrook Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 This is the link to his medal index card on ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A000702-00589?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=733519 Confirms his BWM entitlement and also clasps only apparently for the Sultans Sudan Medal, "Nyima 1917 - 1918" and "Aliab Dinka". Correspondence address - Military Works Dept., Khartoum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin spof Posted 10 August , 2020 Admin Share Posted 10 August , 2020 15 minutes ago, headgardener said: Agreed, but you can still find some O/R service records for officers among the bulk of WW1 O/R services papers (I guess it would be the 'burnt' series). Of the top of my head I can remember a KOSB officer whose WO374 contained his Lovat's Scouts O/R's papers, and then found another identical set of his O/R's papers among the 'burnt' series. That's why I didn't say "yes" or "no" as there will always be exceptions. I was only stating my experience. 16 minutes ago, headgardener said: Btw, regarding what you said about MCs for meritorious service or whatever, are they only in the NY and Birthday lists? I thought that if there wasn't a citation in the LG then it wasn't a gallantry award - or maybe the NY and B'day lists were the only ones without citations? Again, I cannot say outright either way. It has been a few years since I looked at the registers in detail. I recommend anyone interested in MCs , DSOs or DCMs to down load the registers from TNA. They are always free of charge as part of the Digital Microfilm project. MC and DSO registers including pre-publication Gazette entries which have place and date of action are in WO 389. There is also an index card (as shown above) for the MC to make it easier to find. The cards sometimes also include a date of death from the Times etc. For the DSO, you can find additional information in WO 390 which shows how it was presented etc. For the DCM, you can find details of date and place of the event in WO 391 but they aren't indexed. You need to know a rough date of the Gazette and work from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 10 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2020 Dear All, and spof, Many thanks for attaching the interesting MC card. Rather a nice gesture for the obviously gallant and capable T/Lt Hart to have been decorated by the Duke of Connaught. However, what could the ominous '(retained)' have meant...? Kindest regards, Kim. PS: Could a kind Great War Forum soul attach the above-mentioned Medal Index Card, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 (edited) Yes, I wondered about that( ) entry on his MC award card as well, Best...Bryan Edited 10 August , 2020 by RNCVR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 10 August , 2020 Share Posted 10 August , 2020 The bottom line of the MC cards is usually used to indicate the disposal of the decoration if It was not awarded by the King (there is a space on the card for the date of award by the King, if applicable.) The notation on the bottom line is usually the date that the MC was posted to the recipient, but I would guess that in this case it is indicating that it was presented to the recipient by the Duke of Connaught and that afterwards the recipient retained the MC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 10 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 10 August , 2020 Dear Dick, Thanks for that. One learns a new aspect every day thanks to the Great War Forum and its knowlegeable members. Super! Any chance (please) of attaching the Lt Samuel Hart MIC...? Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rayner Posted 12 August , 2020 Share Posted 12 August , 2020 (edited) I don't know whether this has already been sent but on the off chance it hasn't Courtesy of Ancestry George Edited 12 August , 2020 by George Rayner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 12 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 12 August , 2020 Dear George, Many thanks for that. Much appreciated. Thanks also to Eric, by the way, who - like so many Great War Forum members - shares kindly and generously. The MIC was just as unusual as Hart's MC group and showed an irritating discrepance between Sultan's clasps noted and Sultan's clasps worn! Now, of course, all the Forum needs is an Image of the erstwhile Public Works Department, the capable and gallant Samuel Hart! The whereabouts of his MC group remains unknown... Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozmedals Posted 1 November , 2020 Share Posted 1 November , 2020 (edited) Hi Kim Lieut Samuel Elijah HART is listed in this recent OMRS book " On Patrol - the Khedive's Sudan medal 1910-22" by Brian Hewitt, as : Asst. Director of Military Works, Egyptian Army, late Sgt Royal, Engineers. There is a half page bio on him. All 4 Sudan clasps confirmed I have just emailed it to you directly - assuming your email has not changed Edited 1 November , 2020 by ozmedals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozmedals Posted 1 November , 2020 Share Posted 1 November , 2020 Here is a photo of the page Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 1 November , 2020 Share Posted 1 November , 2020 What an interesting group--must be a unique combination surely? Should also have an MID emblem on the BWM I would have thought? Thanks for sharing, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchener's Bugle Posted 4 November , 2020 Share Posted 4 November , 2020 You are correct in that those who did not receive the Victory Medal wore the device on the British War Medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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