Junk shop picture

[TullochArd]

Not that it solves the 2Lt, RA/RHA, MM, Wounded badge mystery I see that the Roper Street address and the Derwent Street address shown on the back have been written by two people with very different styles of handwriting ....... and using a different pen.

[headgardener]

Right, some progress.

Someone has very kindly indexed all the references to local soldiers in The Workington Star & Harrington Guardian newspaper. The index appears to cover Aug 1914 up to at least Jan 1919 (possibly longer). There are 3 references that are of interest to us, maybe someone who has access to some local papers can provide more detail. 

1. "Ralph Smith Miller" of 13 Roper St is recorded as having enlisted in the 11th Border Rgt [ref : Workington Star dtd. 6 Nov 1914, p. 8 col. b]

2. a letter dated 6 Nov 1918 and sent to his home in Workington by "Ralph S. Miller, Pte 119917" was published in the Workington Guardian [dtd 22 Nov 1918 p. 3 col. c] 

3. a letter dated 3 Dec 1918 and sent to his home in Workington by "Ralph S Millar, Pte 119917" was published in the Workington Guardian [dtd. 10 Jan 1919, p. 8 col. b] 

These 3 references would appear to relate to the same individual who lived at Roper Street in 1914 (as per the service papers) and was serving as a Pte in the RAMC in Nov / Dec 1918 (as per the medal roll). 

There are 3 possibilities; either the photo dates from between discharge from the Lonsdale Bn and enlistment into the RAMC (i.e. RSM re-enlisted in 1915/16, was awarded an MM, was promoted to 2/Lt in the RA, lost his commission or was invalided out, then rejoined as a Pte in the RAMC), or it dates from after the war (i.e. RSM was commissioned into the RA some time between 1919 and 1923). The 3rd possibility is that the photo shows him wearing uniform and insignia that he was not entitled to. 

The problem with the first 2 options is that we can't trace an MM. The first option also presents a rather limited time frame for these events to have occurred in, especially as I'd guess that his RAMC number (119917) probably dates from 1917. It is also complicated by the fact that we can't find his name on the Army List or LG, and he'd have needed to produce evidence of his identity in order to gain a commission (therefore very unlikely, perhaps impossible, for him to have served as an officer under an assumed name). The 2nd option is complicated by the fact that we can't find an MM or evidence of his commission in the LG, plus he's not wearing his campaign medal ribbons (which would probably have been issued by 1920 at the latest) which would make the likely date of the photo sometime in the 1st half of 1919 - but we know that he was a Pte in the RAMC in December 1918. 

Personally, I suspect that the 3rd option is most likely. 

 

My initial thoughts on progressing this are:

1. Based on his regimental number (119917), can anyone give an estimate of the likely date on which he enlisted into the RAMC? 

2. Can anyone get anything else out of the LG for either an MM or a commission? I tried a Google search of the LG site using various permutations of his name and initials but drew a blank. 

3. Can anyone look at the relevant newspaper entries listed above? 

 

 

Edited 9 August , 2020 by headgardener

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Perhaps someone has alreadu posted...

There is no medal card for a "Ralph Smith Miller", but there is one for our RAMC man.

There  is no officer file for any RA officer of that name.

[TullochArd]

I'm with Dai regarding his #53 (but less so with his #48 blanket which I suspect could be Greatcoat) in that there is no medal card for a "Ralph Smith Miller" but there is one for our RAMC man and there is no officer file for any RA officer of that name.  So unless we can find an OR MM commissioned 2Lt RA/RHA as the photographic subject (can't be many of them) I suspect this thread has run it's course and beyond that I fear we are now delving into something where the explanation is potentially personal, certainly long lost and ...... perhaps best left at that. 

 

Great thread regardless.

 

Edited 9 August , 2020 by TullochArd

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

4 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

I'm with Dai regarding his #53 (but less so with his #48 blanket which I suspect could be Greatcoat)

The blanket was a metaphorical blanket.

I agree it could be a greatcoat, I also thought it might have been a groundsheet or one of those horse tarpaulins that mounted police cover their horses with in the rain.

[headgardener]

Personally, I don't really feel that the thread has run its course although I agree that we may not find the explanation for exactly what we're seeing here. I don't think we're going to find that RSM was a 2/Lt in the RA, but I think it would be a shame not to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's. The guy in question may still have an interesting wartime history, even if it wasn't while wearing this particular uniform. And you never know what you're going to find unless you look. 

 

Ultimately it's Wingcowyn's thread of course. I would certainly welcome any further thoughts in relation to this (as per my post #52), and particularly in relation to his letters that were published in the newspaper, and the likely date of the RAMC number. 

[TullochArd]

30 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The blanket was a metaphorical blanket.

I agree it could be a greatcoat, I also thought it might have been a groundsheet or one of those horse tarpaulins that mounted police cover their horses with in the rain.

 

....... I'm with you 100% that there is a "blanket" covering of some sort.  I'd offer that the upper part of the dress is remarkably consistent, within known uniform regulation, of a 2Lt RA/RHA of the period right down to the sword frog.   All I'm suggesting here is anything but a coat appears most unlikely in my view ..... in my humble opinion the photo seems correct..

[David26]

I too think this thread is worth pursuing, if we can, since we have not yet fully helped the OP.  We seem to have reached the conclusion that the person in the photo in #1 is either:

 

- RSM in a uniform which he was not entitled to wear, or

- an unidentified RA officer who had previously won the MM.

 

The fact that RSM appears to have written his address on the back of the photo might imply the former, but what would clinch it either way would be if we could turn up a photo known to be of RSM. 

 

David. 

[TullochArd]

3 minutes ago, David26 said:

I too think this thread is worth pursuing, if we can, since we have not yet fully helped the OP.  We seem to have reached the conclusion that the person in the photo in #1 is either:

 

- RSM in a uniform which he was not entitled to wear, or

- an unidentified RA officer who had previously won the MM.

 

The fact that RSM appears to have written his address on the back of the photo might imply the former, but what would clinch it either way would be if we could turn up a photo known to be of RSM. 

 

David. 

 

"The fact that RSM appears to have written his address on the back of the photo"  ............. missed that one David - what RSM is that? 

[headgardener]

2 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

 

"The fact that RSM appears to have written his address on the back of the photo"  ............. missed that one David - what RSM is that? 

 

RSM = Robert Smith Miller

[Alisonmallen62]

Ralph could well have sent the photo to his pal as some kind of cover up.   This was mentioned briefly earlier.  When I mentioned the RAMC link I did think that the RAMC private had worked his way up to being an officer and was the person in the Med directory but he isn’t as we know. However, I wonder that because  Ralph’s friend was in thr RE definitely in 1911 He felt somewhat rejected/dejected and his pride hurt so faked the photo.  Or it simply could have been a joke.  As we dnt know the relationship we dnt know if there was rivalry.  his friend’s brother also was in the army but seemed to have gone awol a bit. You read stories of pride being affected, all your pals serving, a brave thing to join up etc all the stuff in that era that could cause issues by not serving and because of a testicular problem perhaps the lad couldn’t handle it.  Maybe a simple joke or fake to save face. 

[Alisonmallen62]

Another thought Ref post 33 and 51 about writing being different - the signature below and writing of ‘perm address’ is the same person - so Ralph. Doesn’t explain the uniform though. 

[Wingcowyn]

Hi again everyone,

Thanks again for all your efforts, Since we are still left with a mystery of an unidentified RA officer who had previously served in the ranks and winning the MM, or someone dressing up for a fake photograph for whatever reason, perhaps we could continue the thread a little longer just in case some new information surfaces that enables us to identify which of these scenarios is correct. After searching Forces War Records the same information as has been stated previously came up under the reference WO 372/14/10033.

Thanks,

Petet

 

[Alisonmallen62]

Not fully checked these out and has anyone checked wounded lists? 

Edited 9 August , 2020 by Alisonmallen62

[TullochArd]

15 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

RSM = Robert Smith Miller

 

Doh! 

[Alisonmallen62]

Was in touch with person on a family tree so hopefully they will now see all this info on what looks like the same man.  They said their soldier only lasted 6 months and    didn’t make it as a soldier. 

[Alisonmallen62]

On 08/08/2020 at 16:40, headgardener said:

 

Yes, he might, but being commissioned as an officer was a completely different process. The man had to present his birth certificate and get a reference from a person of good standing within the community who had known him for at least 5 years, so that would effectively rule out the possibility of someone becoming an officer under a false name. 

Ralph Smith Miller would have become liable for conscription once the MSA was introduced in 1916, and there are plenty of instances of men who had previously been discharged ending up being conscripted (I know of an example of a man going from discharge as 'not likely to become an efficient soldier' to being killed in action within 18 months due to him being conscripted under the MSA). 

Would it be possible he used his Sapper friend as someone of good standing?  As I mentioned previously he had been in the army for some years and definitely during the 1911 census.  

Edited 11 August , 2020 by Alisonmallen62

[headgardener]

8 hours ago, Alisonmallen62 said:

Would it be possible he used his Sapper friend as someone of good standing?  As I mentioned previously he had been in the army for some years and definitely during the 1911 census.  

 

No. A person of ‘good standing’ was specified as being a J.P. or a Dr or his old headmaster or the Mayor or someone similar. My comment was specifically addressing the possibility that Ralph could have served as an officer under an assumed name, and I was saying that this was virtually impossible because he’d have had to present his birth certificate showing his assumed name plus one or possibly 2 references from people of ‘good standing’ who knew him to be the person on the birth certificate, and had known him as such for at least 5 years. And he’d almost certainly need to already be serving in the ranks under that assumed name at the time that he made his application to train as an officer. So, my conclusion was that he almost certainly couldn’t have served as an officer under an assumed name. 

Hope that makes sense.

Edited 12 August , 2020 by headgardener

[Alisonmallen62]

Yes I realised about the assumed name it was who was thought of as ‘good standing’ back then.  Many thanks

[charlie2]

Perhaps it is the angle the photo was taken at but I don‘t like the MM ribbon, the width of the red and white stripes look odd - too wide.

 

Charlie

[headgardener]

23 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

Perhaps it is the angle the photo was taken at but I don‘t like the MM ribbon, the width of the red and white stripes look odd - too wide.

 

Yes, funny, I'd wondered about that when we first began to run into difficulty with this. I just can't think of a plausible alternative to the MM though - it's exactly the sort of ribbon you might expect to find on the chest of a newly-commissioned subaltern in the latter days of the war. Any thoughts on alternatives? 

[charlie2]

I‘m going out on a limb with this. I think the photo has been retouched, look at the top of his left ear (RHS on photo), common practice at the time I‘m led to believe. I don‘t think there is an alternative ribbon but whoever retouched the photo has „photoshopped „ the wrong ribbon in and it should be the MC, probably only just awarded or awarded after the photo was taken. Look closely at the medal ribbon, the dark part has sharpe edges but the white stripes end in a part circle similar to the end of a brush stroke.
 

A possible reason for the legs being covered is a leg wound, did he lose one and didn‘t want it shown in the photo?
 

Just my thoughts

Charlie

[johnmelling1979]

Hello

 

Been a few days away from this thread and it appears that its caught a bit of attention! 

Makes me wonder who the person is in the picture actually is?

 

Workington known its Coal, Iron and Steel foundries and fishing I suppose

Were as RSM or Stephen Fawcett are working class

The chap in the picture to me, comes across as more polished and educated, not like a typical ranker

 

If it is Ralph Smith Miller in the picture then could it be, he is just dressing up in a uniform, perhaps as mentioned above in a theatre\Play?

 

Or its not a picture of either RSM or Stephen Fawcett but the man is known to both of them? Perhaps from the Workington area.

 

I don't think the identify of this man will be solved unless a relations by some miracle came forward

 

 

[helpjpl]

3 hours ago, johnmelling1979 said:

 

Whereas RSM or Stephen Fawcett are working class

 

 

1.  RSM's sister Margaret married bank clerk Ashley Stanford Graham in 1901. 

In  1911 they were living in Carlise with their daughter Eleanor (8), son Donald (7) and

• Ralph Smith Miller (20) - professional skater
• Robert Lamley Williamson (19) - an articled pupil (land agent) 

Ancestry has a Royal Aero Club Aviators Certificate for Robert Lamley Williamson (born 16/12/1891) - but I can't access the document to see if a photo is included.

 

2.  RSM's sister Eleanor married Edgar McDonald in 1910. If I've got it right, he was a dental anaesthetist (1911 census).

 

3.  Not sure what became of RSM"s third sister Jeannie (born abt 1882) or brother John (born abt 1876).

 

4.  RSM's brother James Boustead/Bonstead Miller (born abt 1884) may have served as a Corporal in the RASC (ancestry):

 

JP

 

[Wingcowyn]

Hi again everyone,

Thanks very much again for all your input. This picture has definitely proved to be a puzzle!

Peter