Royal Horse Artillery soldier.

[Dan Hogan]

I wonder if anybody on the site could point me in the right direction where I might be able to find my grandfather's service record. He was Thomas Kelly. Born in Liverpool in 1886 and was the son of Thomas and Louisa Kelly.  After leaving school he worked as a messenger boy for a printer and joined the army in, I believe, 1904. I am not entirely sure he was in the Royal Horse Artillery but we have a photo showing him in uniform wearing spurs and carrying a riding crop. He served in India and we have a further photo of him at a training course for telegraphy in Meerut in 1905. He was discharged at the end of his service in 1913 and having married, he worked as a porter at the Liverpool Exchange hotel. On the outbreak of WW1, he was recalled and served throughout the war. Sadly he became ill in 1940 and was admitted to Newsham General hospital in Liverpool where he died not long after. I don't have any documentation which might reveal a unit or a number, and I have no knowledge of what happened to his medals in later years. I would be very grateful for any source of information I could follow.

 

Edited 6 August , 2020 by Dan Hogan
photo too big

[battiscombe]

His record may well not survive, but first you would need to find his service number [his medals would show that].  If he enlisted in 1904 his number is likely to  be in the c.31000-35600 range, at a guess [someone may be able to be more exact]. A quick search suggests there are relatively few Thomas Kellys with such a number [searching medal card rolls].

 

One that catches my eye is Thomas Kelly 32305. His record does not look to survive. But.. that Thomas Kelly has a medical record showing in hospital in early 1917 with dental problem. It shows him as in HQ of 5th Division Ammunition Column [DAC] at that time.

That same man also has a 1914 star when previously serving with 43rd Brigade RFA in 1914  - which was in 1st Division..

The 1917 record shows him as 31 years old [correct for 1886 birth], and with 13 1/2 years service.. which is OK for 1904... So I would suggest that man is  a good possibility ..  but a fuller search may throw up some more possibilities

 

As for India, as all artillery were horsedrawn the chances are that he was RFA.  If his station... I  think there was one RFABrigade at Meerut in 1905, the 44th Brigade =  3rd Battery + 30th Battery + 57th Battery at that time. There was an RHA Brigade also at Meerut:- X = 10 Brigade: D Bty + E Bty [ I note that he does not seem to have been in D or E Battery RHA in 1911 census..]. Knowing where he was in 1911 with census would be helpful.. He may well be  a 'Thomas Kelly RFA man' -aged 25 - born Liverpool - visiting a Mr and Mrs Jones at Walton on the Hill, Derby - recorded in 1911census I see.. [I also see 44th Brigade was back in UK-  in Edinburgh - by 1911]

 

Kelly 32305 may be one possibility to work I would suggest

[charlie962]

Welcome to the Forum Dan,

 

Are we talking about Thomas John Kelly, born 27/2/1886 , married Helena Beatrice garlick 27/4/13 ?

 

I think his 1911 Census record is here on Ancestry, showing him as a visitor to a household in Liverpool but noting he was a soldier, RFA.  If so, what connection has he with this family Jones ?

 

 

[charlie962]

The buttons on his tunic are not the normal RHA ball button.

[sotonmate]

Is the white tunic a distraction ?!! I read this as there being another pic with the spurs and riding crop. If so could it be posted here for the sleuths to pore over it for minute clues !

[Dan Hogan]

Sorry. Been away all day and just come online. Thanks Charlie 962. Yes that's our man. He was visiting his sister Winifred Jones nee Kelly and her husband at that address on the 1911 census. His soon to be wife Ellen Garlick  was a friend of the couple and worked alongside them in a factory producing cakes. They married later and she lived till the late 1980s.

 

Many thanks Battiscombe. Yes, that is the same Thomas  Kelly so he was certainly in the UK in 1911. I don't have any idea if soldiers serving in India were sent home on leave as it seems such a long journey. He would still have two years to serve. I asked a friend to check on Ancestry to see if his record could be found, unfortunately without success. I'm told many records were lost during the Blitz . At least now we have the suggestion of a number  thanks to you. I wonder if, given his service, he might have been promoted during the war.

 

Sotonmate, a relative has been busy today and unearthed a few  pictures of Thomas Kelly that I'm hopeful  might be of help. 

[Dan Hogan]

And another. Thomas Kelly is on the right of the table. As he was trained in telegraphy, I wonder if he would also have been trained in heliography. Among his personal effects was a small brass telescope which his family have kept.

 

Edited 7 August , 2020 by Dan Hogan

[Dan Hogan]

Final one:

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dan Hogan said:

And another. Thomas Kelly is on the right of the table. As he was trained in telegraphy, I wonder if he would also have been trained in heliography. Among his personal effects was a small brass telescope which his family have kept.

 

 

That’s a superb group photo Dan.  As well as gunners of the Royal Field Artillery, there are also several Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles) and two cavalrymen, one from the 17th Lancers and one from the 15th Hussars.

Edited 7 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dan Hogan]

Thanks Frogsmile. Thomas Kelly certainly got around during his service and would have been looking forward to settling down with his wife and child untill WW1 intruded. In photos taken in the 1930s he looks rather different from the dashing artilleryman in the colour photo. Perhaps India Service and four years during the war took it's toll. He had two children before his death during WW2 and his great grand children are very proud of his photos.His widow lived till the 1980s

Edited 8 August , 2020 by Dan Hogan

[clk]

Hi Dan,

 

Do you know when the child in the last image was born?

 

Regards

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, Dan Hogan said:

Thanks Frogsmile. Thomas Kelly certainly got around during his service and would have been looking forward to settling down with his wife and child untill WW1 intruded. In photos taken in the 1930s he looks rather different from the dashing artilleryman in the colour photo. Perhaps India Service and four years during the war took it's toll. He had two children before his death during WW2 and his great grand children are very proud of his photos.His widow lived till the 1980s

He was certainly a handsome fellow who looked the part, and from the final photo you posted, married a pretty wife.  One can imagine that the war when added to the end of his colour service must have taken a toll.

 

NB.  There’s a good view of a variety of what we now call ‘stable belts’ in the Telegraph Office photo.

Edited 9 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dan Hogan]

Hi CLK. The child in the photo was Ronald Kelly, born in April 1914. He'd be about 18 months old there so the photo would have been taken in the Autumn of  1915. A daughter Irene followed in 1920.

[Dan Hogan]

He was certainly a handsome bloke Frogsmile and his daughter was an absolute stunner, even in old age. It must have been an exciting time for him leaving his home town at 18 and setting off for India. Just a shame that having experienced that, and surviving the horrors of service during WW1, his life was unexpectedly cut short.

[headgardener]

26 minutes ago, Dan Hogan said:

Hi CLK. The child in the photo was Ronald Kelly, born in April 1914. He'd be about 18 months old there so the photo would have been taken in the Autumn of  1915. A daughter Irene followed in 1920.

 

In that photo Thomas is wearing 3 Good Conduct chevrons on his lower L sleeve. He got 1 for every 4 years spent in the army without being the subject of disciplinary proceedings, so 12 years Good Conduct in total. If the photo was taken in 1915 his service had to start no later than 1902 or 1903. Otherwise the photo has to date from 1916 or later. 

Edited 9 August , 2020 by headgardener

[Dan Hogan]

We're a bit vague on the year of enlistment but yes, probably 1903 when he would have been 17 or so. He was barely out of service before being recalled in 1914. I wonder how the army managed to get reservists back then. Would they have an address for them?

[clk]

Hi Dan,

 

50 minutes ago, Dan Hogan said:

The child in the photo was Ronald Kelly, born in April 1914.

 

Is there any detail under 'fathers occupation' on the birth certificate?

 

Regards

Chris

[Dan Hogan]

Hi Chris.  No, very little information exists regarding Thomas Kelly senior. His name appears on his son's baptismal certificate and there doesn't seem to be much else known about him. The baptism took place in St Sylvesters in Liverpool's Vauxhall area on 4th March 1886. Thomas junior's  mother was Louisa Brett, originally from Surrey. Godparents were Patrick and Catherine Kelly - quite possibly Thomas senior's brother and sister in law. The family are shown living  in Paley Street in the Everton district in the 1891 census where Thomas senior is shown as a commission agent. As we don't have any idea of Thomas senior's birth details other than the year, we can't pick him out of the dozens of Thomas Kelly's living in the city then and born in the same year. The same applies with his death where he is one of a few dozen with the same name who died between 1891 and 1901, where his wife is shown as a widow on that year's census. 

[JOVE23]

Hi Dan,

 

I think Chris wanted to know about Ronald's birth certificate. It might state a regimental number for Thomas Jr.

 

Best,

Justin

[Dan Hogan]

If I can work a day off I'll get into the Local Records Library in Liverpool and see if I can find the record of Ronald Kelly's baptism just in case there is some information on his father. Many thanks everybody for your help though. I'm resigned to the fact Thomas Kelly's record is among the burnt ones, but it was worth a try. Thanks again.