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Remembered Today:

Somme Maps N29 & N35 4th February 1917


GW Craig

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Hello,

 

I am researching my Great Uncle (WE Bradley Pte #2383, 5th Div AIF, 14th Bg, 56th Btln). He was wounded in action on the evening of the 4th Feb 1917. This occurred in an attack outlined in the Brigade War Diary as maps N29 and N35. How can I get a copy of these for that time period?

Many thanks 

Geoff Craig 

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Hi Geoff,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Is there anything in the AWM4 1/50/12 diaries? - link Failing that this link should open up on a map from 1917 with squares N29 and N35 in the centre.

 

Regards

Chris

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Thanks Chris! 

 

I've got both diaries for Feb 1917 14th Bgde & 56th Btln but neither have maps. 


Next I'll be after records for the 1/1 Sth Midland CCS. Would they have records of Private soldiers or just officers? My uncle was treated there for 2 days before succumbing to his wounds. 

 

Cheers

 

Geoff 

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1/1 SM CCS (No. 56)  for Feb 1917 only mentions the personnel of the unit and not wounded ORs or officers. There are weekly lists of total numbers dealt with.

Each of the weekly lists reports the death of 1 officer from wounds.

TEW

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Hi Geoff and welcome and I hope stage 4 lock-downs aren't grinding you down.

 

Here is Finch Trench and the greeen pins show the communication trench from N.29.c.05.20 to (presumably) the closest intersection of Finch Trench..  On the RHS is the January 1917 trench map.  Normally the brigade, division or intelligence summaries have a map but I checked all of these for Feb 1917 without success.

 

The Long Long Trail is a great resource and has the CCS at Edgehill in February 1917.

 

image.png.c5b3d09e57500818eddc055aaa09f75d.png

Image credit National Library of Scotland and tMapper

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Thank you so much!
 

Lockdown is tough but nothing compared to being in a trench. 
 

the 14th Brigade war diary sets out the attack plan for two parties of men on the 4th Feb hence the map references 

 

the 56th Battalion diary only recorded artillery wounds yet my great uncle had 2 gunshot wounds (along with fractured jaw & broken arm) 
 

I’m keen to make a topological model of the area since I’ve just completed a 1/35 scale trench diorama as a tribute (with much artistic license) 
 

I’ll be checking out the Long Trail next for sure. 

D949D3AE-68B5-4F8F-BE9D-A3B846EAF711.jpeg

06652B61-41A9-4BB5-AACE-8750E69F09AA.jpeg

DAE068A7-5711-4D2E-95B3-717AB50A4C94.jpeg

9EA815E7-0CD8-4820-9A3C-EFC39239545A.jpeg

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3 hours ago, GW Craig said:

Thank you. Do you have a map location for the CCS

 Sorry, omitted that bit. It was based at Edgehill which is to the north of Dernacourt.

TEW

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Thank you everyone.

 

This information has been very helpful. Makes reading and interpreting the war diaries much easier. All I need now is a better skill at reading 100+ year old handwriting!

 

A few more newbie questions... I'm looking to plot out the Battalions movements on the evening of the 3rd/4th Feb & the day of the 4th from the war diaries which are well detailed. There was an attack planed for the evening of the 4th but this was cancelled as the two patrols on the evening of the 3rd managed to secure the positions without resistance. So now I am trying to work out if my Great Uncle was wounded in these patrols (records state he was wounded on the 4th) or in subsequent activity on the evening of the 4th. 

 

I am assuming that the blue lines are the Allied trenches and the red are the German. 

 

Q1: Why are the blue Allied trenches not named? Was this a secrecy thing at the time?

Q2: Is it possible to get more detailed quadrant maps (ie: 57c N.29.c and 57c N.35.a) with the Allied positions?

Q3: The red double rows of XX depicts barbed wire? 

Q4; Is it possible to find out which Company & Platoon (Section) a Private was in and who the Lieutenants were? I'm only reading the war diaries for the Brigade and the Battalion for Feb so would these be detailed in another document?

 

Many thanks again 

 

Geoff 

 

Trench Map N29.JPG

Trench Map N35.JPG

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10 hours ago, GW Craig said:

Q1: Why are the blue Allied trenches not named? Was this a secrecy thing at the time?

Q2: Is it possible to get more detailed quadrant maps (ie: 57c N.29.c and 57c N.35.a) with the Allied positions?

Q3: The red double rows of XX depicts barbed wire? 

Q4; Is it possible to find out which Company & Platoon (Section) a Private was in and who the Lieutenants were? I'm only reading the war diaries for the Brigade and the Battalion for Feb so would these be detailed in another document?

Hi Geoff, fantastic diorama!

 

Q1: Until 1918 any representation of Allied trenches was considered secret.

Q2: Normally from a unit war diary, but we've collectively checked the battalion, brigade, division and intelligence.  I've checked McMaster University and we've collectively checked the National Library of Scotland collection.  Your only other possibility is that some members have the Western Front Associations complete trench map scans and are sometimes prepared to post extracts.

Q3: Yes, but indicative of belts of wire or wire obstacles.

Q4: Most unit war diaries would have an appendix with full details of the officer and occasional references to 1 or 2 men.  For your are of interest, these details are not provided.  Best bet is to keep researching and look at the 2 books and personal accounts (eg 'Gallant Company', 'Comrades' and the Half Hundred-Weight.) There seems to be a handwritten mominal roll around as a page is shown on an old website and refers to the AWM as holding the original).

 

If you want to plot the positions, you can try the Bulk Convert facility of tMapper and see them on both modern and National Library of Scotland original trench maps.  Then download them as KML and place them into Google Earth or Google Maps.

 

Edit: Forgot to add Bean's readable account of the general situation, in https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1416589.

 

Good luck.

Edited by WhiteStarLine
Forgot to add Bean's readable account
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On 09/08/2020 at 14:01, clk said:

Hi Geoff,

 

I hope that this helps with Q3:

2106924480_MapSigns.jpg.ca62c6302a0382304b3ef84a0559ba04.jpg

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

Thanks for that, very helpful!

 

One thing that I have observed on several trench maps and I can't find on the map legend above is a black circle with a number on some trench intersections. Would anyone happen to know the meaning of those? Below is a random example, this is the field due East of what is now Newfoundland Memorial:

 

432631040_Screenshot_2020-08-10Exploregeoreferencedmaps-Mapimages-NationalLibraryofScotland.png.43591d8ed09454cb348a66227b144778.png

 

 

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6 minutes ago, EarlyMB said:

One thing that I have observed on several trench maps and I can't find on the map legend above is a black circle with a number on some trench intersections. Would anyone happen to know the meaning of those?

Previous discussion on this topic 

 

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11 hours ago, ajsmith said:

Previous discussion on this topic 

 

 

That explains it, thanks for that! :)

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