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Remembered Today:

How long did the RND wear the sailor cap for ?


DorsetDan

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Hey Forum Folk ,

 

I hope this finds you all well .

 

I have recently found out that my grandfather served in the RND and have been lucky enough to find a newspaper photo of him . The photo is very poor but you can clearly see that he is wearing a sailor cap with the Royal Naval Division tally .

 

He joined in mid 1915 and after training was drafted to Hawke , joining the Bn on Mudros in early 1916 . He stayed with the Hawkes until being badly wounded at Beaucourt . 

 

What I would like to know is how long would he have worn the sailor cap for ? Mudros ? France ? , I presume that at some point it would have been swapped for the army cap with badge .

 

Hoping some mate may have the answer . Many Thanks . Dorset D .

 

 

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There's a photo from Gallipoli of some RND ratings looking at some medals in a presentation case, about the size of a fag packet. There are men of the RND looking on, wearing sailors caps. They were made of khaki drab material. A fellow by the name of Dickie White makes reproductions of these caps. 

I'll post the photo shortly.

It's not an answer to your question, it's a bit of a deviation, but I thought you may find it of interest. 

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Object description
 

Captain Stephen Hungerford Pollen, the Military Secretary to General Ian Hamilton, showing DSO and Military Crosses (still in their cases) to the Guard of Honour of Surrey Yeomanry, Naval Division and Australian Army. Medals are about to be presented to the three officers of the French Mission (Major de Bertier de Sauvigny with the DSO, and Lieutenants Léon de la Borde and Pelliot with the Military Cross).


29 September 1915

Photographer:
(Lieutenant) Ernest BROOKS

IWM Catalogue number
Q 13514

Link to image on IWM website, which allows zooming in:
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item ... /205248698

Source of info on the khaki drab sailor cap: Toby Brayley, April 2019

 

Q_13514_fus_marins.jpg

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I was told in no uncertain terms that them headresses is most certainly not the Brodrick. There I was thinking they were Royal Marines.

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11 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

There's a photo from Gallipoli of some RND ratings looking at some medals in a presentation case, about the size of a fag packet. There are men of the RND looking on, wearing sailors caps. They were made of khaki drab material. A fellow by the name of Dickie White makes reproductions of these caps. 

I'll post the photo shortly.

It's not an answer to your question, it's a bit of a deviation, but I thought you may find it of interest. 

 

Yes very interesting , thank you very much for your reply and the information .

 

First step , proof that sailors caps went to Gallipoli .

 

Thanks again

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I was expecting a number of replies on this topic, and I do hope they are forthcoming.

I get the impression that as the war progressed, the Royal Marine ORs only wore their Brodrick caps on parades, and adopted khaki versions of the army's 1905 Service Dress Cap. At what point this similarly came into being, I do not know. I have consulted two threads on here, and there is no mention therein.

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Not an expert on army caps but my best reading of the RND ratings' headwear is as follows:-

In training at Crystal Palace and at Blandford and Antwerp (1914) - traditional RN square rig with blue naval cap.

From Jan/Feb 1915 at Blandford. Khaki serge naval cap replaced blue cap. Pith helmets also issued late February 1915 for MEF deployment. Khaki caps and pith helmets worn for most of 1915 at Gallipoli as well as any number of unofficial head-coverings. Pith helmets usually in action.

From Jan 1916 at Mudros. Army 1902 pattern stiff SD caps issued. Naval caps replaced.

From mid-1916 in the BEF. Stiff SD caps progressively replaced with army soft SD caps and issue of steel helmets.

 

When CO Nelson Bn addressed his battalion on passage to Gallipoli in April 1915 Khaki naval caps and pith helmets were both to be seen.

 

40 - CO NELSON ADDRESS MINNETONKA.jpg

Edited by horatio2
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4 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I was expecting a number of replies on this topic, and I do hope they are forthcoming.

I get the impression that as the war progressed, the Royal Marine ORs only wore their Brodrick caps on parades, and adopted khaki versions of the army's 1905 Service Dress Cap. At what point this similarly came into being, I do not know. I have consulted two threads on here, and there is no mention therein.

 

Many thanks again on your interest and time on this thread . I'am sure the naval experts will be along to help soon .

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I think that Horatio2 has given a well structured and definitive answer to your question. The following posts also make for an interesting read
 

 

 

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4 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Not an expert on army caps but my best reading of the RND ratings' headwear is as follows:-

In training at Crystal Palace and at Blandford and Antwerp (1914) - traditional RN square rig with blue naval cap.

From Jan/Feb 1915 at Blandford. Khaki serge naval cap replaced blue cap. Pith helmets also issued late February 1915 for MEF deployment. Khaki caps and pith helmets worn for most of 1915 at Gallipoli as well as any number of unofficial head-coverings. Pith helmets usually in action.

From Jan 1916 at Mudros. Army 1902 pattern stiff SD caps issued. Naval caps replaced.

From mid-1916 in the BEF. Stiff SD caps progressively replaced with army soft SD caps and issue of steel helmets.

 

When CO Nelson Bn addressed his battalion on passage to Gallipoli in April 1915 Khaki naval caps and pith helmets were both to be seen.

 

40 - CO NELSON ADDRESS MINNETONKA.jpg

 

 

Many thanks for the info Horatio,

 

On that timeline , that would put my grandfather in a serge sailors cap from joining in June 1915 through training and maybe traveling with it to Mudros . Then into a army cap ( I have seen photos of them with RND shoulder titles , I presume before the issue of badges ).

Thanks for sharing the information , it gives me a better insight into what my grandfather could have worn on his head at what time .

 

On a different subject , I understand that the Hawkes were using Long Lee rifles until being replaced in France in 1916 , so  I presume my grandfather would have taken a Long Lee to Mudros ?  Sorry thought I would throw that in while I had your attention .  Thanks again

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I think that Horatio2 has given a well structured and definitive answer to your question. The following posts also make for an interesting read
 

 

 

 

Thanks again , there is some great photos in these old threads , very interesting .

 

Yes , Horatio2 has nailed it with all the info I could ask for .

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I believe (not certain) that the Long LEs were replaced before the RND sailed to join the MEF in February 1915. It is certain that Short LEs were issued to the battalions that went to Gallipoli in May 1915 (i.e. Hawke, Benbow and Collingwood Bns.) One of the Benbow ratings recorded  "Before leaving Blandford [in early May 1915]  short Lee Enfield rifles had been served out to us and every spare hour was spent in familiarising ourselves with the weapon which was to be our best friend for many months to come."

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Sorry, bit just seen the pitiful attempt at an RND officer’s period uniform worn by the re-enactor in Shiny’s original thread, what a travesty!

 

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According to General Blumberg the RND was equpped with the Short LE in late 1914 (post-Antwerp). He states that the RM Corps  "... had to surrender their short Lee-Enfield rifles for the use of the Army and the Royal Naval Division, and were re-armed with the old Lee-Metford long rifle which was replaced first by the Japanese rifle and later still by the Canadian Ross rifle which had been discarded by the Canadians; it was only those members of the Corps who were serving in the Expeditionary Forces [RND] that kept their short rifles." I think we can take from this that ex-RMLI short LEs were with the five naval battalions of the RND at Blandford by early 1915, the four RMLI battalions being already so equipped.

 

1 hour ago, DorsetDan said:

that would put my grandfather in a serge sailors cap from joining in June 1915 through training

but in RN blue uniform during recruit training at Crystal Palace, changing into khaki at Blandford,

Edited by horatio2
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3 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Sorry, bit just seen the pitiful attempt at an RND officer’s period uniform worn by the re-enactor in Shiny’s original thread, what a travesty!

 

 

Yes ,agreed  :o

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3 hours ago, horatio2 said:

According to General Blumberg the RND was equpped with the Short LE in late 1914 (post-Antwerp). He states that the RM Corps  "... had to surrender their short Lee-Enfield rifles for the use of the Army and the Royal Naval Division, and were re-armed with the old Lee-Metford long rifle which was replaced first by the Japanese rifle and later still by the Canadian Ross rifle which had been discarded by the Canadians; it was only those members of the Corps who were serving in the Expeditionary Forces [RND] that kept their short rifles." I think we can take from this that ex-RMLI short LEs were with the five naval battalions of the RND at Blandford by early 1915, the four RMLI battalions being already so equipped.

 

but in RN blue uniform during recruit training at Crystal Palace, changing into khaki at Blandford,

 

Thanks , for the extra information .

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3 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Sorry, bit just seen the pitiful attempt at an RND officer’s period uniform worn by the re-enactor in Shiny’s original thread, what a travesty!

 

 
Yes, I concur too.

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On 04/08/2020 at 16:29, horatio2 said:

I believe (not certain) that the Long LEs were replaced before the RND sailed to join the MEF in February 1915. It is certain that Short LEs were issued to the battalions that went to Gallipoli in May 1915 (i.e. Hawke, Benbow and Collingwood Bns.) One of the Benbow ratings recorded  "Before leaving Blandford [in early May 1915]  short Lee Enfield rifles had been served out to us and every spare hour was spent in familiarising ourselves with the weapon which was to be our best friend for many months to come."

 

Had a look through my copy of the battalion history and found this passage in the chapter covering the arrival in France .

 

"The battalions , engineers , divisional train , all alike had come without stores of any kind , with rifles that would only take ammunition obsolete long before the war."

and latter on the page

"At Doudelainville the battalion was properly fitted out with up-to-date rifles , Lewis guns , Stokes mortars" 

 

Taken from The Hawke Battalion by Douglas Jerrold.

 

Plus this photo which has been posted on the forum before - a RND rating in a trench at Gallipoli . So i'am not sure could there have been a mix of Long and Shorts ?

 

 

RND Gallipoli.jpg

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