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Remembered Today:

Acting Bombardier John Turpie (50366), RGA


RCD

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I am trying to find out which Battery my grandfather, Acting Bombardier John Turpie (50366), was serving in when he gained his Military Medal sometime in 1916, with a view to finding out exactly when, where and why he gained it.

 

I would appreciate any help or advice based on the following fragments of information I have found so far:

 

1. His MM index card states his award was gazetted 19/2/17, and his corps was 16th Heavy Artillery Group, RGA.

 

2. An earlier newspaper announcement (Leven Mail, 16/11/16) indicates he gained the MM for "special services rendered some months ago" but gives no further details other than to say "he received the compliments of the General and Staff of the Division he is attached to." 

 

3. His 1914-15 Star Roll entry indicates he disembarked in France on 22/5/15.

 

4. His British Medal and Victory Medal Roll entry states his unit was "1st Hvy Bty RGA" on entry into the war, although the column heading "Unit previously served with ...on entry into theatre of war" has been scored out in blue pencil, so I am not sure if this was actually the Battery he disembarked with.    

 

5. His Pension Ledger Card indicates his regiment to be "RGA 18 (northd. F.C." but there is no indication of the date he was in this regiment.

 

My specific questions are:

 

Which unit is "Ist Hvy Bty RGA" exactly, and would this indeed be the unit he disembarked with? Given he was from Fife, Scotland, two possibilities are 1/1st Highland (Fifeshire) Heavy Battery and 1/1st Lowland (Edinburgh) Heavy Battery, which were attached to 16th HAG during 4-28 July 16 and 3 March - 27 April 1916, respectively, consistent with the timing implied by the Leven Mail newspaper announcement (i.e. "some months" prior to 16/11/16).

 

However the dates of disembarkation in France of the 1/1 Highland and 1/1 Lowland are 4 May 1915 and 16 Feb 1916, respectively, neither of which agree with my grandfather's disembarkation on 22/5/15. Might he have disembarked independently of his unit? Or does this date mismatch indicate he disembarked with another unit entirely?

 

Could "RGA 18 (northd. F.C." refer to Company No. 18 (Northumberland) Fire Command? And when would he likely have been in this regiment (e.g. beginning or end of the war)?

 

Would the "compliments of the General and Staff of the Division he is attached to" have been recorded somewhere?

 

Any insights would be welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by RCD
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I would suggest that as he was not a Territorial  RGA then he will probably not have been in a Territorial RGA unit such as you mention. For his original posting.. [the place to start] I would focus on the  RGA 1914-15 star medal roll. I have recently been looking at these for early 1915 and that date will, I think, be linked with a specific RGA unit [ on the basis of my research the date does not seem to relate to a batch of RGA reinforcements/replacements, who went to the RGA Base and then were then posted to wherever required...]. I would suggest finding the full roll he appears on and then other men on that roll with the same entry date is the best way forward.. Some of their records will survive.. The medal rolls are commonly in numerical order so can be searched through quite quickly- looking for men in the 43000-53000 range may save time  [these will be mainly men who joined around start of war and were trained by spring 1915.]. most RGA men arriving in May 1915 seem to have been in 42000-49000 numbers as far as I have seen.. I have found the RGA 1914-15 star rolls very useful as a way in to matching men to units.. Any men who were killed in 1915 may also have their  original unit listed on the roll [rather than their last unit].. which may assist in the search.. if you can find a 1915/early 1916 casualty with that same date-of-entry. 

He does not seem to have been one of the many RGA new arrivals posted to new Trench Howitzer/Mortar Batteries being formed in April-May-June 1915..

 

I note that 14th Divison was arriving in France around that date and I think 14 Heavy Bty RGA was originally attached to them.. its date of entry might be worth checking.. i think it may have gone to  16 Heavy Artillery Brigade in June 1915.

 

Edited by battiscombe
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Here's a thought.

 

FindmyPast Newspapers quote Bdr Turpie:

1859258927_GWFTurpieJQuote1916.JPG.f1c31a6bc0056c387960f23df8a3ba57.JPG

 

This suggests to me they were in same Battery.       But RFA ??  It's a mistake.

 

CWGC tells us that David Ross Kinninmonth 51924 died 4/8/16 with 23 Hvy Bty RGA  (Soldiers Effects shows same Bty)

Kinninmonth has an entry date of 14/9/15.

 

Problem- WO95 5494 2, courtesy National Archives, gives this allocation for 23 Hvy Bty:

392101894_GWFTurpieJ23HvyBtyAllocations.JPG.f07e8fe3eedc75d00ff0f610f165e193.JPG

 

ie 23 Hvy Bty did not join 16 HAG until 9/11/1917

 

But worth exploring further, I suggest.

Charlie

 

PS I think the BWMVM Roll 1st Hvy Bty RGA is the unit he finally ended up with. Note that the header on the Roll is crossed through. But I may be wrong.

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I have yet to find many men with that date of entry. Can confirm that not 14 Hvy Bty as they seem to have arrived on 21/5/1915.

 

But another man whose records do [partly] survive -  Gnr F H Hair 42606 -  later discharged from 16 H.A.G. RGA,  as Turpie , - was first in 22 New Heavy Bty in March 1915 and then transferred to HQ "1st Hvy Bde Army Arty" 15/5/ 1915, so a few days before leaving for France. arr 22/5/1915, like Turpie.  This '1st Hvy' is also perhaps what appears on Turpies file.. and possible in Bde/Group HQ rather than Battery

 

and another--- Gnr John James Monaghan 44881 was also first in 22 New Heavy Bty in March 1915 and then posted to  HdQtrs "1st Hvy Bde Army Arty" 15/5/ 1915,  arr, France  22/5/1915. [to 280 Siege Bty 2/10/1918]

 

and another Gnr George Reid 51847 [from Forfar] arr.France  22/5/1915;  killed 1/4/1917 with '16th Heavy Artillery Group H.Q.'

Edited by battiscombe
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14 hours ago, battiscombe said:

I have yet to find many men with that date of entry. Can confirm that not 14 Hvy Bty as they seem to have arrived on 21/5/1915.

 

But another man whose records do [partly] survive -  Gnr F H Hair 42606 -  later discharged from 16 H.A.G. RGA,  as Turpie , - was first in 22 New Heavy Bty in March 1915 and then transferred to HQ "1st Hvy Bde Army Arty" 15/5/ 1915, so a few days before leaving for France. arr 22/5/1915, like Turpie.  This '1st Hvy' is also perhaps what appears on Turpies file.. and possible in Bde/Group HQ rather than Battery

 

and another--- Gnr John James Monaghan 44881 was also first in 22 New Heavy Bty in March 1915 and then posted to  HdQtrs "1st Hvy Bde Army Arty" 15/5/ 1915,  arr, France  22/5/1915. [to 280 Siege Bty 2/10/1918]

 

and another Gnr George Reid 51847 [from Forfar] arr.France  22/5/1915;  killed 1/4/1917 with '16th Heavy Artillery Group H.Q.'

 

Many thanks indeed for these suggestions. I'll definitely pursue the idea of matching to other men with the same date of entry. 

 

You mention the date of entry of 14th Hvy Bty as 21/5/15. Where did you get this date? The Long Long Trail gives 20/5/15. I just wondered if there was some uncertainty, given both dates are tantalisingly close to my grandad's d.o.e. (22/5/15). Perhaps the 14th HB War Diary published by the Naval & Military Press might help to eliminate this possibility as it lists Honours and Awards (including to NCO's). Does anyone have a copy?

 

Edited by RCD
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16 hours ago, battiscombe said:

I would suggest that as he was not a Territorial  RGA then he will probably not have been in a Territorial RGA unit such as you mention. For his original posting.. [the place to start] I would focus on the  RGA 1914-15 star medal roll. I have recently been looking at these for early 1915 and that date will, I think, be linked with a specific RGA unit [ on the basis of my research the date does not seem to relate to a batch of RGA reinforcements/replacements, who went to the RGA Base and then were then posted to wherever required...]. I would suggest finding the full roll he appears on and then other men on that roll with the same entry date is the best way forward.. Some of their records will survive.. The medal rolls are commonly in numerical order so can be searched through quite quickly- looking for men in the 43000-53000 range may save time  [these will be mainly men who joined around start of war and were trained by spring 1915.]. most RGA men arriving in May 1915 seem to have been in 42000-49000 numbers as far as I have seen.. I have found the RGA 1914-15 star rolls very useful as a way in to matching men to units.. Any men who were killed in 1915 may also have their  original unit listed on the roll [rather than their last unit].. which may assist in the search.. if you can find a 1915/early 1916 casualty with that same date-of-entry. 

He does not seem to have been one of the many RGA new arrivals posted to new Trench Howitzer/Mortar Batteries being formed in April-May-June 1915..

 

I note that 14th Divison was arriving in France around that date and I think 14 Heavy Bty RGA was originally attached to them.. its date of entry might be worth checking.. i think it may have gone to  16 Heavy Artillery Brigade in June 1915.

 

 

Many thanks for this suggestion. One quick question....could you explain in a little more detail what you meant in reference to the Territorial RGA?

Edited by RCD
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14 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Here's a thought.

 

FindmyPast Newspapers quote Bdr Turpie:

1859258927_GWFTurpieJQuote1916.JPG.f1c31a6bc0056c387960f23df8a3ba57.JPG

 

This suggests to me they were in same Battery.       But RFA ??  It's a mistake.

 

CWGC tells us that David Ross Kinninmonth 51924 died 4/8/16 with 23 Hvy Bty RGA  (Soldiers Effects shows same Bty)

Kinninmonth has an entry date of 14/9/15.

 

Problem- WO95 5494 2, courtesy National Archives, gives this allocation for 23 Hvy Bty:

392101894_GWFTurpieJ23HvyBtyAllocations.JPG.f07e8fe3eedc75d00ff0f610f165e193.JPG

 

ie 23 Hvy Bty did not join 16 HAG until 9/11/1917

 

But worth exploring further, I suggest.

Charlie

 

PS I think the BWMVM Roll 1st Hvy Bty RGA is the unit he finally ended up with. Note that the header on the Roll is crossed through. But I may be wrong.

 

Thank you very much for this lead, Charlie. The Leven Advertiser of the same day (24 August 1916) has the same story, and moreover confirms that Kinninmonth and Turpie were indeed in the same Battery, at least at the time of the former's death (4/8/16). As you point out, there is then a problem with the dates relating to 16th HAG, but perhaps the action for which Turpie gained his MM with 16th HAG occurred earlier, say June or July, before being transferred from whatever Battery he was in then to 23rd HB in August. In any case, this gives me another piece in the jigsaw.

 

 

 

image.png

Edited by RCD
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Doesn't relate to MM award but when I was searching I did see his name in the 1917 Casualty Lists and came across this for 1917:

Courtesy FindmyPast

487189598_GWFTurpieJCasListMay1917.JPG.3fdf42da688b8bbe1afb59cae94ff190.JPG

1909123503_GWFTurpieJWoundedReport.JPG.306b7d13b1e5e539da216bc6d32ca08d.JPG

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Thanks once again. Presumably he was on a hospital ship because he was already wounded, then the ship itself got torpedoed!

 

His Disability Pension Ledger indicates he sustained gun shot wounds to both arms and legs.

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with regard to RGA Territorials, the Highland and Lowland Brigades were Territorials.. there was a Highland RGA Heavy Bty originally from Dumfermline, and a Lowland Heavy Bty based in Edinburgh.. but the Territorials have their own service numbers.. Turpies is not one of them.. in the lastbutone post those men on casualty lists with 365987 and 365019 numbers have Territorial-series numbers .Turpies number is in the main RGA Regular number series..

 

the date of entry for 14 Heavy Bty was found by checking 1914-Star rolls and records of men with that 21/5/15 date. All the men I checked with 21/5/15 entry date and surviving records were in 14 Heavy Bty..  the 2 other men I found with the [very unusual, it seems ] date of 22/5/1915 were with this 1st Hvy HQ unit..   My money would currently be on that unit as his entry unit.... as that coincidence is - to me - very striking

 

As 14th Hvy battery was one of the last 14th Div units to arrive [arriving in field billets only on 24th], along with the DAC, I suspect the LLTrail is inaccurate.. but yes, entry dates can also be inaccurate

 

if that is Sgt/BQMS David Kinninmouth his service numbers 5139/344316 suggests originally from 1 of 6 companies of FORTH (CITY OF EDINBURGH) FORTRESS RGA- (Territorials..) I think..

Edited by battiscombe
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I've just consulted the 14th HB War Diary, Oct 1914 - Sept 1915 in the National Archives (WO 95/397/3). 14th HB embarked from Southampton on 20 May 1915 and disembarked at Le Havre on 22 May 1915 after 24 hours delay owing to fog, so the date fits.

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2 hours ago, RCD said:

Presumably he was on a hospital ship because he was already wounded, then the ship itself got torpedoed!

Yes, that's my reading. The casualty Lising for wounded would suggest wounding c 9/4/17. There had already been two ships torpedoed, 30/3 Gloucester Castle and 3/4 Asturias . Then on 17/4 there were two ships torpedoed-  Donegal and LeFranc. Probably one of these two.

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2 hours ago, RCD said:

disembarked at Le Havre on 22 May 1915 after 24 hours delay owing to fog, so the date fits.

But Batiscombe has said that those of 14th Bty that he has found have been given entry date of 21/5/17. I think his detection of 1st Heavy HQ unit might be worth following up. You now have several tentative units !

 

Charlie

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that 22/5/15 date is slightly puzzling as the star roll lists shows 21st May for all the men I have checked.. but given the records of the 2 HQ men found who show the 22/5/15 entry date match this latter link does seem suggestive ..

I attach a part page (image from FindMyPast - British Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image)  of 14th Heavy Bty RGA gunner shown on his file - as arriving Havre 21/5/1915 - which is what the 1914-15 Star medal roll also records. .. as an example..

Screenshot 2020-08-04 at 17.38.49.png

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Hi,

 

As an observation, the MM index card for John has him as 16 Heavy Artillery Group RGA.

image.png.db8c946a58259a159d6205f4e315a03b.png

Image sourced from Findmypast

 

There appears to be 7 other RGA men Gazetted on 19.2.1917 with the Registration Paper reference '0137/3925':

 

31214 Castledine - 'No2 Depot Late 25th Hy By RGA'

70021 Crowder - 'Late 23rd Siege By RGA'

25565 Goodenough - '23rd Siege By RGA'

29415 Ryan - '23rd Siege By RGA'

53320 Smith - '23rd Siege By RGA'

12351 Snow - '65th Siege By RGA'

46133 Tabor - '90th Siege By RGA'

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

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21 hours ago, RCD said:

Perhaps the 14th HB War Diary published by the Naval & Military Press might help to eliminate this possibility as it lists Honours and Awards (including to NCO's). Does anyone have a copy?

I have a copy. He is not listed in the comprehensive list of Honours and awards, nor in those wounded/killed.

 

I note in the beginning it says they embarked 20/5 but sailing was delayed 24 hrs and thus disembarked 12.30 22/5 Le Havre.  If this means 12.30 in the morning then 21/5 cannot be far out !

 

If you need some names of 14 HB men as in casualties or awards  to follow up for service records then I can list some from the Diary.

But my inclination is to go with Battiscombe's HQ men for his arrival. How he moved to 23 HB and when he was in 16HAG are yet to be divined.

 

Charlie

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20 hours ago, battiscombe said:

f that is Sgt/BQMS David Kinninmouth his service numbers 5139/344316 suggests originally from 1 of 6 companies of FORTH (CITY OF EDINBURGH) FORTRESS RGA- (Territorials..) I think..

Not the same man.

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Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions so far. Yes, 14 HB was a rabbit hole.

 

In all of this, my aim is to identify which unit he was in when he did whatever he did to gain his MM, with a view to consulting the relevant war diary for possible hints. I understand that identifying his unit on entry is a good starting point (and 1st Hvy Bty HQ does look promising - thanks Battiscombe), but nevertheless I'd like to cut to the chase and ask how much his MM index card itself reveals.

 

How specific is the Corps information given in MM index cards? His card states his Corps as being 16 HAG, rather than an individual battery within 16 HAG. Could this imply he was attached to 16 HAG HQ, or does it still leave open the possibility he was attached to a battery (so far unidentified) within 16 HAG?

 

If he was attached to 16 HAG HQ, would the relevant war diary be 16 HAG (WO 95/216)? If so, then I think my search would be at an end, because I have found no reference to him, or to any MM awards in fact, in the 16 HAG war diary for 1916.

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Looking at Farndales History of the RA I get the impression the Groups became common in summer 1916, as mixed heavy artillery for specific tasks in the summer offensives -  I think then that men listed by 'Group' as such will indeed be in that HQ - those within the assorted RGA batteries they contained would be listed by  battery [as perhaps as the other men listed to Siege Btys in the same Gazette ?].

- Looking at a few  surviving records of other RGA men with MMs with units also given as an HAG [Ancestry MM roll has a few so identified..], in all cases the records confirm they were in an HQ. This would make sense as they are distinct  administrative units, and such posting are recorded  on service records as such - and they would not be on the strength of their previous battery/unit. 

I see one early  Heavy Art HQ unit was explicitly noted as later renamed as a HA 'Group' . I have only looked at 4-5 records but they are all seem clearly referring to  HQs..Searching awards in the London Gazette for men identified to HAGs may provide more names to  check if more certainty is required..

see these men with MM awards for example: Patrick Morrissey  5975   23 Heavy Artillery Group

; Albert George Lewis   36380 37 Heavy Artillery Group; Gilbert Mortimer 74727 69 Heavy Artillery Group

Farndale states this for the summer 1916 [which the MM would seem to relate to, according the the newpaper] that their HQs were attached to the RA HQs of Divisions they were supporting - which would also fit with the "he received the compliments of the General and Staff of the Division he is attached to." This would seem odd [to me]  if just a Bdr in a Hvy Battery..  If an HAG HQ with a Divisonal artillery HQ he would have worked in close proximity to the artillery commander [a Brigadier-General] and his staff..  I dont know how large these HAGroup HQs were but I would expect no more than  a dozen men  [a divisional artillery staff was only half a dozen officers + c.20 NCOs and men in 1915, at least..]. There would be plenty of scope for earning such an award in such a role in the artillery battles of 1916.. I would have thought. Another route to the specific circumstances of his award might [?] be to search for awards to others in 16HAG. If he was awarded an MM it seems not unlikely that some others of HQ staff - assuming that is correct - were also rewarded, with other awards with citations [in Lon Gazette perhaps?].. .. does the diary list officers in the HQ , for example? or if he was linking HQ and Batteries.. in diaries of units within the Group? Are those other MMs to Siege Btys from the same Group?

-I also attach, as an example,  a part record of another : Percy Bailey MM 20445 - [courtesy of AncestryBritish Army Service Records 1914-1920 Image] ex 121 Hvy Bty - posted to 9th Brigade RGA HQ which became 9th HAG..

 

Screenshot 2020-08-09 at 23.01.57.png

Edited by battiscombe
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12 hours ago, battiscombe said:

- Looking at a few  surviving records of other RGA men with MMs with units also given as an HAG [Ancestry MM roll has a few so identified..], in all cases the records confirm they were in an HQ. This would make sense as they are distinct  administrative units, and such posting are recorded  on service records as such - and they would not be on the strength of their previous battery/unit. 

I see one early  Heavy Art HQ unit was explicitly noted as later renamed as a HA 'Group' . I have only looked at 4-5 records but they are all seem clearly referring to  HQs..

That is sort of the impression (but in a superficial manner) that I was getting. You have spelt it out nice and clear, very helpful examples.

Not having a copy of Farndale's volume I am at a disadvantage.

I have found it interesting to read the 1915 Diaries of the 'Reserve' Groups that in turn grouped the Brigades  (that became Groups in 1916 and reverted to Brigades later!)  that grouped the Batteries. With the frequency of changes of structure it must have made command lines somewhat complicated ? I am not suprised that War Diaries got lost in the administration changes let alone due to enemy action.

All very difficult today for us armchair enthusiasts !

 

Charlie

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18 hours ago, RCD said:

I'd like to cut to the chase and ask how much his MM index card itself reveals.

Never as easy as that as we all know ! Chris has given you the other names that appear on the same schedule number. They all have reference back to particular batteries. So it reinforces the idea Turpie was HQ.

 

I have come across a man with all the same units (23HBty 29/1/15 then 1stHBde 22/5/15 then HQ16HAG ?) but not yet verified if in same order. Dates etc may be useful ?

George Reid 51849 Svc Record extracts courtesy FindmyPast  (not an MM man but has entry date on 14/15 Roll as 22/5/15 which is the day he moved from 23HBty to 1stHyBde.

300312159_GWFTurpieJRGAsimilarSvcReidG.JPG.dceed691d8e87ba365a24f281ce61c8b.JPG

 

 

For Turpie

It comes back to him being most probably in HQ 16 HAG at time of MM action. As you have pointed out it is difficult to find an appropriate War Diary if we do not know to which Div 16HAG might have been attached at the time.

 

charlie

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On 09/08/2020 at 23:56, battiscombe said:

I dont know how large these HAGroup HQs were but I would expect no more than  a dozen men 

When 1st Bde RGA ( became 1 HAG in 1916) was formed it had the following HQ establishment: (courtesy National Archives WO95)

 

639015048_GWFRGABdeEstablishment.JPG.fa98ee016b5c0f77d870b321efb6586d.JPG

 

So perhaps a bit higher than you thought ?

The remarks column suggests some of a Bdr's activities at HQ.

 

Charlie

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Thats really useful to know. I was wondering how large HQ staff were as the war progressed; they were tiny early on in the war. Interesting that 4 batmen for 2 officers. The trained observers/telephonists required also suggests the active role for these HQs. I had looked for that diary last night but missed it..

 

I see that compares with an RFA Bde HQ of 37 on the 1915 establishments.

Edited by battiscombe
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6 hours ago, battiscombe said:

4 batmen for 2

Isn't it the same as each one having an orderly and a servant ?

 

There's a Dec1916 establishment for 16HAG showing marginally lower numbers. I think they were reduced about the time Brigades became HAGs?

again courtesy national archives WO95

1939851933_GWFRGA16BdeEstablDec1916.JPG.e81d9721a7a63119b7cd401d06e7661f.JPG

Edited by charlie962
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I've been searching the 16 HAG war diary during 1915/16 (WO 95/216) for clues as to which Division 16 HAG HQ might have been attached to. I came across the following bits and pieces, although I've really no idea if any of it is relevant. Any insights welcome.

 

23/9/15: this operation order mentions taking instructions from 50th and 12th Divisions   

image.png.87315702cfe637518cd370d6fa33c6cb.png

 

5/3/16: 16 HAG (HAB at the time) comes under executive control of something called 6th Group HAR.

image.png.3370be373cdab53a9c052f4e5a6ca4c1.png

 

15/4/16 (and similar on 17/4, 21/4): counter battery work in association with 4th Division

image.png.c57cb14b767e2e81b08cf2b1842ab619.png

 

1/5/16: 16 HAG HQ joins command of 8th Corps HA.

image.png.a41b3849e0d96b86b1cfe29d02f4a258.png

 

Roderick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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