Robert M Timperley RFA Sgt 1565/705628

[ZIL]

I am currently researching the above.I have his medal card showing him with a trio..landing in Egypt 4.6.15.I have tried to find further details..Unit etc and have come up negative.

i would like to obviously know more about his movements etc.Any assistance really appreciated. Zil

 

[PRC]

Hi - hopefully an artllery expert will be along shortly but to get you started my first thought on seeing that combination of numbers was that he was a Territorial Force man who was renumbered at the start of 1917.

 

A check of his Medal Index Card goes someway to support that - the roll reference for his 1914/15 Star is preceded with a (T), while that for his Victory Medal & British War Medal has what could possibly be read as TF.

 

Our parent site, the Long, Long Trail records that the following number range was issued in the renumbering:-

705001 – 710000: 331 Brigade, RFA/ 2/2 E Lancashire

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-of-the-tf-artillery-in-1917/

 

331 Brigade RFA were part of the 66th Division, going out to France at the end of February \ early March 1917.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/66th-2nd-east-lancashire-division/

 

It would seem likely that Robert must have been serving in that Brigade by the end of 1916 in order to be included in that Brigade renumbering with a relatively low number, although the LLT page does say the Division was regularly being drained for draft, so 331 Brigade may have been significantly understrength. Robert may therefore have been posted to them in order to bring the unit up to strength for overseas service.

 

FMP has a Robert Maywhort Timperley on the Manchester University record of those who served, who joined the University in 1919 as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal Field Artillery General List. (Ancestry have a Service Medal Roll indexed as Richard Maynhart Timperley, but I don't have a subscription to check that out). A 1919 commission would mean his medals would have been sent to him rather than as is the case of an officer during the war, who would have had to apply for them.

 

His commissioning appears on page 5163 of the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 23rd April 1919.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31306/supplement/5163/data.pdf

Page 5162 shows it as effective 7th April 1919.

 

If they are all one and the same man, then any surviving Great War documentation for him in the ranks is likely to be in his officers service record.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C738990

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 3 August , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[ZIL]

Thank  you for such a detailed reply.The information regarding the re numbering certainly helps and that regarding the University is very interesting.What I cannot understand is the entry on his medal card stating that the theatre of war first served in is (3) Egypt with the date 4th June 1915. Unless he returned to the UK or changed units.

Regards Zil

[PRC]

Other ranks didn't routinely change units, so the most likely explanation is that he was wounded \ had an accident \ had health issues, and the medical evacuation chain led back to the UK. On recovery he would have been posted to where he was most needed - he wouldn't automatically have gone back to his old unit..

 

Unfortunately only wounding gets a mention in the official casualty lists and those lists are frequently subject to mis-spellings \ muddling of digits - and thats before you add in the extra potential to get things wrong in the transcription stage in online sources. If it was accident or ill-health then until you get sight of his officers' record, your best hope is local newspapers.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 3 August , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[ZIL]

Thank you Peter, I have checked out Ancestry and all entries for medal cards relate to the same person...Robert Maynhart Timperley a Sgt in the RFA  disembarking in Egypt 

4.6.15.I have tried the FMP and come back to those on Ancestry. Am I correct in thinking that if 1565 Sgt Timperley had been promoted that would have shown on his card or did they start a new card when commissioned?

This is intriguing!! Zil

 

[David Porter]

2 hours ago, ZIL said:

I have his medal card showing him with a trio..landing in Egypt 4.6.15

 

That date of entry signifies 1/2nd East Lancashire Brigade RFA disembarking at Alexandria. So this is a posting from England to the 42nd Divisional Artillery, some of whom were already in Egypt. His date of enlistment would appear to be September 2 or 3, 1914, based on others with nearby numbers. 

[ZIL]

This is excellent....I can now follow this up via war diaries etc.My thanks to yourself and Peter ...this is what the Forum excels in.

Zil

[PRC]

14 minutes ago, ZIL said:

Am I correct in thinking that if 1565 Sgt Timperley had been promoted that would have shown on his card or did they start a new card when commissioned?

 

It would have been included if he had been promoted on or before the 11th November 1918, as that would then have been the highest rank he served at during the qualifying period, and therefore what would be shown on his VM & BWM. What I'm not sure about and have been hunting round and failing to find an answer for was the rank shown on the 1914/15 Star. In the back of my mind I have it down as the rank on entry to the qualifying Theatre of War, but it could have been the rank at the end of the qualifying period - so he was either a Serjeant in June 1915 or December 1915

 

Cheers,

Peter

[ZIL]

Thanks once again....from a basic start...the full picture is starting to emerge.

Zil

[PRC]

2 hours ago, ZIL said:

I have checked out Ancestry and all entries for medal cards relate to the same person...Robert Maynhart Timperley a Sgt in the RFA

 

3 hours ago, PRC said:

FMP has a Robert Maywhort Timperley on the Manchester University record of those who served, who joined the University in 1919 as a 2nd Lieutenant in the Royal Field Artillery General List. (Ancestry have a Service Medal Roll indexed as Richard Maynhart Timperley, but I don't have a subscription to check that out). A 1919 commission would mean his medals would have been sent to him rather than as is the case of an officer during the war, who would have had to apply for them.

 

His commissioning appears on page 5163 of the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 23rd April 1919.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31306/supplement/5163/data.pdf

Page 5162 shows it as effective 7th April 1919.

 

His London Gazette Entry and his Officer Service record at the National Archive both show him with middle name as MAYWHORT.

 

A check of the General Registrars Office index of births for England & Wales shows no candidates with a middle name MAYNHART, but there is a birth registered with the Civil Authorities in the Nantwich District of Cheshire in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1896 of a Robert MAYWHORT Timperley, mothers' maiden name Maywhort.

 

While Robert Maynhart Timperley could be a completely different individual, given the North-Western basis of the two Divisions he is known to have served with I suspect someone in the records office has mis-read Maywhort for Maynhart. Struggling to see it - well just look how his father has written his name when completing the 1911 Census of England & Wales, (my source has transcribed it as "Mayishort")

 

Courtesy Genes Re-united. Restriction of reproduction applies.

 

Robert, aged 14 and born Crewe, was recorded living at 41, Hungerford Road, Crewe. This was the household of his parents, Robert, (aged 41, a Railway Clerk (Stores) with the London and North West Railway Company, born Crewe) and Mary Ann, (aged 39 and born Crewe). The couple have been married 17 years and have had 3 children, although only Robert and his sister Gladys Hough Timperley, (16, born Crewe), were still alive.

 

In the death records for England & Wales there is no likely match for for a Robert Maynhart Timperley - there is a Robert M., whose death at the age of 29 was recorded in the South Manchester District in the April to June quarter, (Q2) of 1926, but the1926 Probate Calendar has a Robert Maywhort Timperley, of Park Road, Newton-Le-Willows, Lancashire who died on the 18th May 1926 at Manchester. Probate was granted to an Elizabeth Timperley, widow.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Timperley&yearOfDeath=1926&page=2#calendar

(The marriage of a Robert M. Timperley to an Elizabeth Benson was recorded in the Chorlton District of Lancashire in Q1 of 1924).

 

In Genealogy there is always another stone that can be turned over that and another source uncovered, but for now looking very much like the soldier and the officer are one and the same individual.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

[ZIL]

I cannot thank you enough for your endeavours.I will try in newspapers etc...I have access to the archives...to verify finally...but that can be complicated.

i will update with anything further .Zil

[brianmorris547]

Zil

The Artillery of the East Lancashire Div TF in 1914 was 1 E Lancs Brigade (The Blackburn Artillery), 2 E Lancs Brigade (Manchester) and 3 E Lancs Brigade (The Bolton Artillery). The Blackburn and Bolton Artillery went with the Div to Egypt in September 1914 and were the first TF Artillery in Action at Serapeum in February 1915 as the Turks tried to cross the Suez Canal. The Div artillery then served in Gallipoli and returned to Egypt in January 1916, where they were until March 1917 when they moved to F&F. Some Units of the Manchester Artillery did go to Egypt in 1915. Some men of the Bolton Artillery Reserve Brigades who were recruited in Bolton in 1915 (2/3 ELB RFA and 3/3 ELB RFA - later 332 Brigade) went on drafts to Egypt to join 1/3 ELB. I imagine that your man was on such a draft to 2 ELB and that the majority stayed in the UK with 331 Brigade until they went to F&F.

Brian

 

 

Edited 4 August , 2020 by brianmorris547
additional info

[ZIL]

Thanks Brian, That really helps..I have tried the war diaries but they,I am told , have not be digitised as yet.I have been working on various angles outlined by Peter.
The picture is emerging bit by bit...thanks to the contributions from the Forum which are really appreciated.

Zil

[PRC]

2 hours ago, ZIL said:

I have tried the war diaries but they,I am told , have not be digitised as yet.

 

Only the ones for the Egyptian \ Palestine period wouldn't be available. The TF renumbering shows him with 331 Brigade which went to France with the 66th Division in February \ March 1917. If he was in one of the drafts that went out to an RFA unit of the 42nd Division and was still with them at the time of renumbering, then I would have expected him to be renumbered into the appropriate range for those units, not 331st Brigade.

 

Interestingly, the National Archive shows a War Diary for the 331st Brigade RFA, 66th Division, serving in France from the 1st September 1915 to the 28th February 1916. Would be intriguing to know what that covers.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355502

 

There is also one that covers from May 1917 to May 1919.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355503

 

Probably the most likely chance of your man being mentioned is his selection for officer training, but as they are currently free to download, might be worthwhile taking a look.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

[brianmorris547]

The Bolton Evening News at the outbreak of the war reported that the Bolton Artillery would be leaving for it's war station in Ireland but very soon rumours were going around that they were to be sent to Egypt. 600 Horses were requistioned. On 11/09/1914 it reported that the Blackburn and Bolton Artillery had been selected because 85% of the men had volunteered for foreign service. On 18/09 it reported that they had left Southampton for a destination that could not be revealed but on 26/09 began to report on the voyage to Egypt.

The WD for the Commander RA (42 Div - as it later became) for 1914, covering the action on the Suez Canal in February 1915, is available on Ancestry in War Diaries Gallipoli under RFA 42 Div in WO 95/4313. It is quite difficult to read  but confirms that they expected to be sent to Tipperary but on 01/09/1914 "Orders to move to Egypt 2 15 Pr Brs only. 1st and 3rd less base details ? selected". The WD for the Bolton Artillery 1/3 ELB, which also covers Feb 1915, is also available in the same place in WO 95/4314. 

The WDs that have not been digitised cover Egypt 1916 and are WO 95/4591 (CRA) and WO 95/4592 (The Brigades including 1/2 ELB).

Brian

[ZIL]

Thank you Peter and Brian..I’ll check the diaries...also his middle name was Maywhort...his mother’s maiden name.

i have also have as yet unconfirmed info that he was a dental surgeon...both pre and post war .Accounts for the Uni entry post but nothing pre but he could have been a student .joined up then returned and graduated...will keep everyone updated.

Zil

[ZIL]

I have now confirmed that he was a dental surgeon.He began studies post war ,joined up returned to M/c uni in 1919 and qualified in 1921.His wife qualified at the same time.He died in 1926 aged 29 yrs, leaving a widow and 12 month old child. Cause of death currently unknown but it appears sudden, dying two weeks before his funeral.I have checked the diaries but have found nothing to relate to him personally.
I am in possession of his two ID discs when he was a corporal...it is my intention to try and trace any relatives..they belong with the family.

My sincere thanks to all contributors .

Zil

[ZIL]

correction to last..read pre war instead of post!!!!

another senior moment.Zil