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Josef Švejk

German helmet.

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Josef Švejk

Hi.

Need help. Is this original German WWI helmet, fake or some post war cantraption?

Thanks.

Regards

362756395_6e59e6fc-70d7-49f0-b8b8-28e6d780f5ab.jpg

362756395_d6fa97bd-5d81-4868-b9db-6d78921857d8.jpg

362756395_34167677-3687-4402-93ff-a9f5f06afc6f.jpg

362756395_c1a4d46d-8aa2-4d30-8033-568923331a17.jpg

362756395_d998138a-0067-4cd3-ae0c-693d12e50fbf (1).jpg

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Tom K

There should be a maker and size stamp on the forward left side of the neck apron.

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Hans k.

This is not a WW1 German helmet shell. It looks like a badly designed modern copy that has been treated with something to make it rusty. 

 

Hans

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tharkin56

is the stand worth more than the helmet?

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Hans k.

I would say yes it is. The stand is certainly more desirable. 

 

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JMB1943

Just for the uninitiated amongst us, what are the giveaways that this is a fake helmet?

 

Regards,

JMB

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Hans k.

Whoever made this thing not only couldn't commit to whether they were recreating a Model 1916 or an M1935, they also had only a vague notion of what either model looked like.  If you've stared at German helmets for long enough, like I have, you'll understand that this thing makes no sense. 

Edited by Hans k.

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Tom K

Aside from the general problem with the shape as mentioned above (it's just weird), the washers on the vent lugs appear to be too small in diameter.

 

On original helmets there should be a maker and size stamp on the inside front of the left side of the neck apron (always present) and there should also be a "heat" number stamped in the crown (sometimes hard to find (filled with paint or rust). 

 

T.K.

 

 

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Hans k.
37 minutes ago, Tom K said:

 

 

On original helmets there should be a maker and size stamp on the inside front of the left side of the neck apron (always present) and there should also be a "heat" number stamped in the crown

 

 

 

 

Here are examples of the (Thale ironworks) maker/size stamp E.T. 62 on the inside flange and the heat lot number ("R" steel mill code and ingot lot number) inside the dome of an early model 1916.  There were a total of 13 German helmet makers during WW1. 

100_1313-copy-1.jpg.015b5b2a1a55c4b24764c073785576cd.jpg

post-3701-1226811839_thumb.jpg.e100f82f64c8c1c5633ff8c21ee26eff.jpg

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JMB1943

Hans & Tom,

 

Thanks for the replies, and especially the photos.

So, how did this inverted "coal-scuttle" come into existence?

It seems to me that there are at least two possible scenarios.

 

1) A forger with access to a malleable-type sheet steel of the correct thickness, a hydraulic press (and other metal-forming machinery) knocked this out on a Saturday afternoon, 

and aged it by burial in his back garden.

2) A forger with access to a genuine, but non-German pattern, similar coal-scuttle style helmet shell (from e.g. South America etc) altered it to try to match the German pattern.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

 

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Tom K

I have also been puzzling over the question - it cannot have been easy to make - nor cheap for the reasons you laid out.  Why go to all that trouble and expense of making something and then lower its value by aging it to the point that it can only be sold as a relic? I think that even a modern repro sold as such would command more than this helmet could.

 

Another tell tale sign I forgot to mention is that on WW1 helmets there is a ridge running all the way around the outside edge of the helmet (where the rim is folded over on the inside). This ridge runs all the way around the helmet. How pronounced this is varies a bit, depending on the maker but it is easily discernible.  The smooth transition as on the helmet above is more characteristic of the M35 (as Hans mentioned - a bit of a mishmash). 

 

To me it seems like someone took a genuine M35-ish shaped helmet shell and added the vent lugs and chin strap attachments of an M16/17 to try and make a WW1 helmet out of it (somewhat easier than bashing one out of steel plate).

 

More photos of the helmet in the OP would be helpful.

 

T.K.

Edited by Tom K

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Hans k.

Nobody struggled to make this thing in their backyard workshop's hydraulic press. They've been churning out reproduction helmets in China and India and who knows where else by the hundreds if not thousands for many years. This just happens to be one of the cruder, lower-end versions available. There are certainly more convincing looking examples available for sale. These are meant to be used by reenactors, but some eventually do get sold as the real thing by crooked dealers. 

 

 

I went on eBay, typed in 'reproduction German helmet" and found a bunch of them immediately  This one shown here is available for $99 and is being offered as a reproduction. Note the identical, hideous hybrid M16/35 shape and especially the odd angle of the vent lugs when seen from the front. 

Repro1.jpg.4b7e6981d4cf3fbcbb64bc7ed671c75f.jpgRepro1a.jpg.8a8056dec7919885fb100aff81c490a9.jpgRepro1b.jpg.8e3a184915117e8f9215fecf2aadd82a.jpgRepro1c.jpg.39a42405f019050a3d9a15036ce01fb5.jpg

 

 

 

Here are 4 pictures of an original M16 with a similar camo for comparison purposes and palate cleanser

M16camo2.jpg.4bf57eb98d020b63b3bcd18a257ce722.jpg

 

M16camo1.jpg.7653159a85670647eb48e950a7f6967f.jpg

M16camo5.jpg.0437cd6d10ca308fd87b005831575d5b.jpg

M16camo7.jpg.1af283bd3ad8ea065139ba37b05268ab.jpg

Edited by Hans k.

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Tom K

Nice helmet Hans -  Palate cleanser indeed.  Side by side the differences are pretty stark.

 

T.K.

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