Deges Posted 1 August , 2020 Share Posted 1 August , 2020 Can anyone help me with this S14 sawback bayonet. What I've learned and bin told that this is a type B pommel-tang manufacture. (http://www.imperial-german-bayonets.net/?page_id=283) but beside this site I can't seem to find more info about it. Is it true that these are only made a short period of time, so there aren't many of them out there? I was also told that these S14's where made during wartime? Is this correct? Is these the same story als the s98/05 sawback bayonets, where they stopped making them during war? Any other info is welcome! Thx in advance. Greetings Nick PS don't pay attention to the scabbard on the pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 August , 2020 Share Posted 1 August , 2020 35 minutes ago, Deges said: Can anyone help me with this S14 sawback bayonet. What I've learned and bin told that this is a type B pommel-tang manufacture. (http://www.imperial-german-bayonets.net/?page_id=283) but beside this site I can't seem to find more info about it. Is it true that these are only made a short period of time, so there aren't many of them out there? I was also told that these S14's where made during wartime? Is this correct? Is these the same story als the s98/05 sawback bayonets, where they stopped making them during war? Any other info is welcome! Thx in advance. Greetings Nick Hi Nick, And welcome to GWForum! We are in the process of re-organising our flat and I am not quite certain where my book on the S.14 is... But, briefly, these were made from the end of 1914-mid 1915 to satisfy an urgent need for 1,000,000 bayonets by the German army, but this type along with the ersatz particularly by (originally) the cavalry and cyclists units for use on their carbines. None were made after mid-late 1915, and those with a sawback were withdrawn from frontline service September or so 1917, and had the sawback removed OR were distributed to rear echelon troops. As yours still has its sawback it could be an early WW1 capture / souvenir. Broadly speaking, 6% of all German bayonets were supplied with a sawback for cutting down brushwood, etc., but surviving examples make up more than 6% of known marked WW1 German bayonets - they were collectable to show the people back home how nasty the evil huns was! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deges Posted 1 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 1 August , 2020 Trajan, Thx for the quick respons and the very usefull information! Do you have any insight on the types? (A and B), did they first made the B types and then switched over to the A types? And I've been told that later on they produced this bayonets with flashguards? Or did it depend on which maker? Grts Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 August , 2020 Share Posted 1 August , 2020 That page you showed was written by the 'go-to-man' on S.14 bayonets, Ian Jackson, the author of the book on these. The Type B construction was the officially approved method of fitting the blade and tang and grips, used mainly by Odeaon, sometimes by Samsonwerk, but most makers chose to make the S.14 with the Type A fitting. There is also a Type C - bute let's not get into that! But yours looks to me to be a regulat Type A fitting as usual on Samonswerk. I'll try and find Ian's book and scan the relevant pages for you. Very few S.14's have flashguards. These were introduced in mid-1915, by which time S.14 manufacture had ended or was close to ending. IIRC, there are no S.14 with factory-fitted flashguards, except for a few Samsonwerk exaples and the 'Gottscho' variant, but some S.14 did have flashguards retro-fitted Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 1 August , 2020 Share Posted 1 August , 2020 Pictures are large, the scabbard looks like S98/05 and frog. 6% is corect for peacetime and infantry regiments, in pioneer units there were about 50-60% of sawbacked bayonets, from this could be not in all army 6% by real numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deges Posted 2 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 2 August , 2020 Thx guys for al your information! It was very helpfull to learn more about these bayonets! Is it for sure a type A? Because it's slightly different then the one in the link? But the type B is also a little bit different I see🙈 if you understand what I mean:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 2 August , 2020 Share Posted 2 August , 2020 (edited) I dont known the collector authors designation of A and B variation,i assume germans would it accepted as there are inspector stamps, anyway this type of pommel adding to tang is the probably the earlier, visible on S84/98aA production, probably the stronger version. b.r.Andy Edited 2 August , 2020 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 August , 2020 Share Posted 2 August , 2020 14 hours ago, AndyBsk said: Pictures are large, the scabbard looks like S98/05 and frog. 6% is corect for peacetime and infantry regiments, in pioneer units there were about 50-60% of sawbacked bayonets, from this could be not in all army 6% by real numbers. Yes, the 6% rule does seem to apply to infantry units only, and was in operation from the early 1870's. That 6% matches more-or-less the number of NCO's in a regular infantry unit - see my article, ‘Un engin de torture, une baïonnette à crochets; une arme blanche déshonorée’: an historical-archaeologicalevaluation of the Sawback bayonets of the Deutsches Heer' in Journal of Conflict Archaeology, for 2020 - https://doi.org/10.1080/15740773.2019.1730074 I have never seen any German documentation that comments specifically on the production of these for Pioneer units. IF the regulations were followed, then all pioneer's and members of the Eisenbahn units had one each... When my dear wife has finished the re-arranging of our flat (4 days and counting...) I will try to find the German documentation on all of this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 August , 2020 Share Posted 2 August , 2020 I can not find a copy of that S.14 book. If anyone has both the type a and B S14 bayonets, could you please post showing the difference, ai simply do not know. Thank you Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 August , 2020 Share Posted 3 August , 2020 OK, for one and all, a quick copy of the relevant pages from Ian Jackson's S.14 book.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 3 August , 2020 Share Posted 3 August , 2020 Thank you Julian, that’s a great help! Makes it perfectly clear now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMike Posted 13 May , 2022 Share Posted 13 May , 2022 Just acquired two S14's and I'm disappointed at how little information is available on the web. Would love a copy of Ian's book but it's out of print. Enjoyed reading what was on the forum here. As to the different Pommels, Ian's website had 3 pages as samples of the book and one of them provided a pictures which might tie it all together. I'll post the here. Expecting the first of the S14 in a day or two. A pretty common Simonwerk but the 2nd is an FP Sawback in beautiful conditin that I'm praying arrives safe and sound. Will post when and if it arrives. Thanks for all of the info. I'll check back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 May , 2022 Share Posted 14 May , 2022 On 13/05/2022 at 04:57, AlphaMike said: Just acquired two S14's and I'm disappointed at how little information is available on the web. Would love a copy of Ian's book but it's out of print. Too true! I have suggested to Ian that he do a new edition of S14 but like many of us he does have a full-time profession and so research time is, for him, rather limited. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMike Posted 26 May , 2022 Share Posted 26 May , 2022 Just received this Sg1914 Sawback Bayonet which is in VG condition. It's a Firma Parlophon I Posted some pics. I did have one question someone else had asked me. Did the 8 manufacturers of the Type I S14's make their own blades or did they just make the handles and small parts? Hard to believe gramaphone makers transitioned their factories to making blades. I saw a reference where Mundlos is believed to have supplied the Type II manufacturers. Was wondering if there was information on the Type I. Also,Is there a connection between Freiderich Plucker and the S14's? I saw this posted and it seems to contradict Ian Jackson's book. The comments in Red are mine. Thanks! Very rare variation from a rare maker. MAKER: FRIEDRICH PLUCKER JR. or Firma Polyphone (Polyphone Records) S14 book FOUNDED: 1858 RZM #: RZM M7/62 PLACE: SOLINGREN GRAFRATH REICHSGAR (SA): NRH,WM QTY PRODUCED (SA): 1,000 RARITY: 4.5/5 P.S On the pictures I had another S14 that was made by Samsonwerks so I put both bayonets on my Wound Badge display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 26 May , 2022 Share Posted 26 May , 2022 1 hour ago, AlphaMike said: Just received this Sg1914 Sawback Bayonet which is in VG condition. It's a Firma Parlophon I Posted some pics. I did have one question someone else had asked me. Did the 8 manufacturers of the Type I S14's make their own blades or did they just make the handles and small parts? Hard to believe gramaphone makers transitioned their factories to making blades. I saw a reference where Mundlos is believed to have supplied the Type II manufacturers. Was wondering if there was information on the Type I. Also,Is there a connection between Freiderich Plucker and the S14's? I saw this posted and it seems to contradict Ian Jackson's book. The comments in Red are mine. Thanks! Very rare variation from a rare maker. MAKER: FRIEDRICH PLUCKER JR. or Firma Polyphone (Polyphone Records) S14 book FOUNDED: 1858 RZM #: RZM M7/62 PLACE: SOLINGREN GRAFRATH REICHSGAR (SA): NRH,WM QTY PRODUCED (SA): 1,000 RARITY: 4.5/5 P.S On the pictures I had another S14 that was made by Samsonwerks so I put both bayonets on my Wound Badge display. That's a rare beauty! Jackson says the FP sawbacks are 1% of recorded surviving S.14's! On who made the bayonet blades? Good question... There were lots of small knife making companies in Solingen pre-WW1 and I suspect they supplied the blades for the Ersatz, and it could well be the case with these S.14's. I have not come across Friedrich Plucker before, and would stick with Jackson's 'Firma Parlophon' until other evidence emerges. He notes that FP, and Bekka , companies like Odeon were owned by the same man, based in Berlin. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMike Posted 26 May , 2022 Share Posted 26 May , 2022 58 minutes ago, trajan said: That's a rare beauty! Jackson says the FP sawbacks are 1% of recorded surviving S.14's! On who made the bayonet blades? Good question... There were lots of small knife making companies in Solingen pre-WW1 and I suspect they supplied the blades for the Ersatz, and it could well be the case with these S.14's. I have not come across Friedrich Plucker before, and would stick with Jackson's 'Firma Parlophon' until other evidence emerges. He notes that FP, and Bekka , companies like Odeon were owned by the same man, based in Berlin. Julian Just received this Sg1914 Sawback Bayonet which is in VG condition. It's a Firma Parlophon I Posted some pics. I did have one question someone else had asked me. Did the 8 manufacturers of the Type I S14's make their own blades or did they just make the handles and small parts? Hard to believe gramaphone makers transitioned their factories to making blades. I saw a reference where Mundlos is believed to have supplied the Type II manufacturers. Was wondering if there was information on the Type I. Also,Is there a connection between Freiderich Plucker and the S14's? I saw this posted and it seems to contradict Ian Jackson's book. The comments in Red are mine. Thanks! Very rare variation from a rare maker. MAKER: FRIEDRICH PLUCKER JR. or Firma Polyphone (Polyphone Records) S14 book FOUNDED: 1858 RZM #: RZM M7/62 PLACE: SOLINGREN GRAFRATH REICHSGAR (SA): NRH,WM QTY PRODUCED (SA): 1,000 RARITY: 4.5/5 P.S On the pictures I had another S14 that was made by Samsonwerks so I put both bayonets on my Wound Badge display. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMike Posted 26 May , 2022 Share Posted 26 May , 2022 Thank you Julian! I agree with you that Firma Parlaphone, being one of the 3 companies owned by Carl LIndstrom, all making bayonets makes the most sense for the circle FP mark. That and the "S14 was a cancelled South American Export Bayonet" seem to be the 2 most unsubstantiated statements associated with this bayonet. And the Blades being supplied by various shops fits pefectly with the double stamped Pattern II S84/98s in my collection, with the blade maker on one side of the Ricasso and the assembler/Finisher on the other. Thanks for the added rarity factor concerning the FP sawbacks. If you work out 1% of Sawbacks of 6% out of One Million Total Ersatz that comes out to roughly 600 FP sawbacks made by FP, hypothetically! Rare indeed. Thank you sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 26 May , 2022 Share Posted 26 May , 2022 Firstly the information from 3R has not connection to S14, RZM marking was probably used by SA dagger production, so in reality Fr.Pluecker Jr,is a Solingen Grafrath firm and could be not mixed with Parlophone or Carl Lindstroem fabric, second question is did use Pluecker similar FP in oval? i dont known but the proof on blade is not Solingen, which means the blade forging or blade mashinery was not realised in Solingen but by other area, we need to see the pommel proof as there would be visible who fullended the handle, proof on locking nut to sample. Is possible the FP in oval is for assembler and its other firm, in wiki is no link that Parlophone should have anything in front of his name, so for me wout exact info about firm is to this day no link to Parlophone, when BK was Beka records which is usable shortage. The lenght of 31cm is typical for ASG88/98 bayonets. personally i dont known about any american contract with similar blade lenght, so the theory is questionable to compare for bavarian converted greek M03/14 bayonets. Same as the sawback percentage in war is different as for peace time, there were more bayonets probably produced with sawback, as mainly raised the pionier and other special units in war time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 May , 2022 Share Posted 27 May , 2022 10 hours ago, AndyBsk said: .... the proof on blade is not Solingen, which means the blade forging or blade mashinery was not realised in Solingen but by other area ..sawback percentage in war is different as for peace time, there were more bayonets probably produced with sawback, as mainly raised the pionier and other special units in war time. We still need a full review of the EBayonets to understand their proofing system! But, I think individual inspectors were assigned to individual makers not areas. The point is that even Waffenfabrik took over a 6 months to get their bayonet production up and running. I noted in my Waffenfabrik article (attached) that in 1913 60% of the world's cutlery was supplied from the Solingen area mainly made by 'cottage' industries, and it seems reasonable to suggest they could quickly switch to bayonet blade production once given the necessary specifications. Numbers of sawbacks? I'll check that later AndyB, as figures are available, but don't see why there should be much change from 6% as I think the numbers of new units was proportionate to existing numbers. Julian BENNETT 2021 ARMS ARMOUR Call for Arms Supplying the Sultan s Army.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 27 May , 2022 Share Posted 27 May , 2022 Thanks for adding of the interesting turkish article, thats really good reading. About 6% this was declared by peacetime, is written in Ruediger, some bayonets didnt have sawback in part of Germany, some were not made wout. So even S98/05aAS were in majority made prior 1915 mainly as sawbacks because destined for Pioneers instead of PFM. So numbers could be not on exact proportion. You should then divide the prewar production and war production numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 May , 2022 Share Posted 27 May , 2022 Glad that you liked the article Andy! I thought I had posted it before, but possibly under a Waffenfabrik thread. On sawbacks. You are correct. Sawback production increased in WW1. Figures for Saxony of bayonets issued August 1914 March 1918 show 19% of S.98/05 and 30% of S.84/98 are sawback, while for Bavaria in 1917, 20% of S.98/05 and 10% of S.84/98 are sawback. These figures are from Storz, quoting relevant official archives. As for the 6% figure pre-war, several sources confirm or indicate that to be the case, if actually around 6-6.5%. This figure more-or-less matches the percentage of NCO's in an infantry unit with spares left over for pioneers, etc. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaMike Posted 27 May , 2022 Share Posted 27 May , 2022 Thank You Andy and Julian!! For supplying such interesting facts that are not easily available to the average collector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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