Help needed please - Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort´s Own) Regiment Number:S/24364

[clk]

Hi Jo,

 

Images sourced from the National Library of Scotland - link

 

There was a time lag between men arriving back in the UK, and the date of War Office published lists. Unfortunately, the men shown from his regiment don't appear to have surviving service files, so we can't say when Thomas stepped foot on the mainland. My guess would be in early December.

 

Depending on how much context you would like to Thomas being taken PoW, as well as the Battalion war diary (linked by Ken in post #6), it might be worth downloading the Brigade and Division HQ diaries. They are here and here. There is help on reading map references here.

 

The Red Cross PoW record has Thomas as being on the camp register of Friedrichsfeld. A contemporary account of which says...

Image sourced from archive.org

 

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

The location where he was taken prisoner might also be Lagnicourt

 

Whilst the register records the wrong regiment, it does seem to be Lagnicourt.

Image sourced from the ICRC

 

Regards

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

The location where he was taken prisoner might also be Lagnicourt 

Well spotted Michelle, Clk has confirmed it.  That slightly vague initial letter caused some confusion didn’t it. There had been fierce fighting in Lagnicourt exactly one year before our subject was captured so the local terrain must have been well chewed up.

Edited 2 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Bill'sgrandaughter]

On 01/08/2020 at 12:18, HTSCF Fareham said:

A quick tweak of the photo.

 

 

Thank you so much for tweak to the Photo - I've printed it to take to my dad.

Thank you all for the information. I have no idea how you find it all!!! 

 

I'm putting all the information together to give to my Dad. Thank you so much - I've spent hours looking and didn't find any of this!

 

Thanks again.

[Pat Atkins]

On a minor detail:

 

The reference to Lagnicourt, NE of Bapaume, seems at first sight to be a little anomalous - 2nd RB were quite a way to the SW on 30th March 1918, leaving Moreuil at 4am and ending up at Castel that evening - these locations are SE of Amiens. It might not have been the first place Rfmn Grubb was taken prisoner, in which case we won't derive any benefit from my speculation here! Anyway...

 

Such discrepancy isn't implausible given the chaotic period, of course, and I wonder if the answer might lie with the locations of the 2nd Royal Berkshires. We know that on 25th March a detachment of 80 men from 2nd RB took part in an attack in conjunction at LICOURT with, among others, 160 men of 2nd Royal Berkshires. Perhaps in the aftermath Rfmn Grubb was mixed up with these Royal Berkshires men and subsequently captured on 30th March? It would perhaps explain the initial misidentification of his regiment by his captors, and possibly - if the whereabouts of 2nd Royal Berkshires could be established - his presence on 30th at Lagnicourt some 60km NE of his own battalion and its line of retirement over the previous few days. Alas, I couldn't find the 2nd Royal Berkshires' War Diary on Ancestry - doesn't mean it isn't there, however: I seem to struggle finding WDs on Ancestry.

 

Just a bit of speculation really, but if anyone can find the 2nd Royal Berkshires' WD it might be proved right or wrong easily enough. Why they - or a packet of men - might have moved 40km more-or-less due N at this point in the German offensive I wouldn't know. 

 

Here's the 2nd RB diary entry:

reproduced from Ancestry.co.uk WW1 War Diaries (France, Belgium & Germany) 1914-1920

[stiletto_33853]

My thoughts as well Pat, they 30th does not gel with events and locations on that date. Could Lagnicourt being confused with Manicourt, NW of Nesle and just to the SW of the line being held on 25th. Or even Meharicourt or Maucourt near Rosieres where the 25th Inf Brig was holding a line a.m. of the 27/3/18.

 

Andy

Edited 2 August , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[stiletto_33853]

30th

[FROGSMILE]

Pat’s hypothesis seems sound to me and I suspect that in the confusion of the attack Grubb became mixed up with 2nd Royal Berks and was either, captured with them, or mistakenly sent by the Germans with the wrong group as they were backloaded.  It was usual policy to move POWs rearwards ASAP after capture and, in haste, I doubt that the Germans cared much about who belonged to which regiment.  As for Lagnicourt, it’s always possible that a clerk filling in a record made a mistake, but I suggest we should be careful 100 years after the event to not second guess people who were there at the time and it seems to be equally possible that he ended up at Lagnicourt simply by being separated from his parent unit.  The confusion during March-April 1918 was immense and not that easy to comprehend without first hand experience I would venture.

Edited 2 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

18 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Alas, I couldn't find the 2nd Royal Berkshires' War Diary on Ancestry - doesn't mean it isn't there, however: I seem to struggle finding WDs on Ancestry.

 

It's here

 

From the 24th March to 31st March,"Map Reference Amiens 17/1000000" (margin note) "Battalion took part in rearguard actions during these dates".

 

According to the Brigade war diary here both Battalions together with the 2/E. Lancs, were in 'the same place' by 11pm on the 29th March, this was the 'edge of the big wood NE of MOREUIL"  The Brigade diary has literally dozens of pages of Appendices and messages for March 1918.

 

As a matter of interest Middlebrook states 21,000 British prisoners taken on the 21st March so admin may have suffered until they were organised.

[Pat Atkins]

Thanks, kenf48 - I have no idea why I'm quite so ineffectual on Ancestry WDs. The proximity of the two battalions and their names, coupled with the chaos of the time, must surely explain the anomalous POW entry. Lagnicourt? Maybe a concentration centre of some sort, or the like.  Point taken re the administrative strain of taking so many POWs in such a short time.

[FROGSMILE]

A concentration point for POW processing would fit with the usual POW administration that’s generally planned for in advance of an offensive.  A good call I think Pat.

[Bill'sgrandaughter]

So interesting. Thank you for sharing this info. Much appreciated! 

[stiletto_33853]

Sounds logical and a good call Pat. The area N.E. of Moreuil Wood ties in nicely also with Divisional material.

 

 

 

Andy

Edited 5 August , 2020 by stiletto_33853

[headgardener]

Pat’s conclusions make complete sense. As has already been remarked upon, the collapse of that part of the British line in the face of the German Spring offensive led to a enormously confused situation on the ground, leaving the Germans with the massive headache of how to manage the thousands of prisoners, many of whom would have been wounded and in need of medical care. 

Regarding the reference to Lagnicourt, it was Hirson (as per the ICRC records) that was the local POW concentration point behind the German lines. The way in which Lagnicourt appears in the ICRC records does indicate that the Germans understood that this was where he was taken prisoner (or perhaps where the earliest report of his capture emanated from, or possibly his name was included on a long list on which everyone was recorded as being taken at Lagnicourt). 

Edited 5 August , 2020 by headgardener