2/South Staffordshire

[CassieRae]

A query please so I am sure.

I have only 2 documents for this soldier and wish to be certain that he joined the 2nd Bn South Staffordshire.

Sorry if this seems a dumb question but haven't seen it written like this before.  What also is C & R under Clasps?

 

Many thanks.

[Matlock1418]

20 hours ago, CasseRae said:

What also is C & R under Clasps?

Clasp & Roses I reckon = 1 x clasp for 1914 Star medal ribband and 2 x silver roses issued [1 x Rose to be worn on the ribbon of the 1914 Star when alone - i.e. when worn without the medal].

Meaning been within range of enemy guns / potentially had actually been shot at in France and/or Belgium in 1914

:-) M

Edited 31 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
clarify

[CassieRae]

Many thanks re Clasp & Roses Matlock1418

[headgardener]

Unusual, as it's a very late issue (Jan 1943!). I've seen plenty of officers who never claimed their medals after WW1 making claims after the outbreak of WW2, but I've never seen an OR's medals being issued so late. Normally they were issued automatically in the early 1920s.

And, yes, he was with the 2nd S Staffs. 

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Unusual, as it's a very late issue (Jan 1943!). I've seen plenty of officers who never claimed their medals after WW1 making claims after the outbreak of WW2, but I've never seen an OR's medals being issued so late. Normally they were issued automatically in the early 1920s.

Yes a very late issue - From this MIC I originally rather get the impression it was perhaps only the C & R that were issued in 1943

[Had he perhaps joined the HG and realised from others that he was missing them to go with his existing star?? - or just realised he hadn't got his medals from an earlier attempt at issue (perhaps one that, for whatever reason, hadn't happened or been delivered after all)]

Then again ... ???

Couldn't find another MIC though - Anyone found an earlier Medal Roll or other MIC?

:-) M

Edited 30 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
addit

[headgardener]

18 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Yes a very late issue - From this MIC I originally rather get the impression it was perhaps only the C & R that were issued in 1943

 

 

No, it was the whole trio and clasp that were issued on this card. The annotations indicate that the medals were issued on Supplementary medal rolls that recorded late issues as opposed to the regimental rolls that were produced at the end of WW1. 

Maybe, for whatever reason, his medal entitlement somehow wasn't originally recorded by the Army Medal Office.

[Matlock1418]

15 minutes ago, headgardener said:

No, it was the whole trio and clasp that were issued on this card. The annotations indicate that the medals were issued on Supplementary medal rolls that recorded late issues as opposed to the regimental rolls that were produced at the end of WW1. 

Maybe, for whatever reason, his medal entitlement somehow wasn't originally recorded by the Army Medal Office.

You have obviously read it better than me originally - I was getting my doubts - yes, a very late issue

:-) M

 

 

 

Thanks to WFA/Fold3 there is a Pension Ledger card for a disability pension https://www.fold3.com/image/644300532 for Robert ASHFIELD, S Staffs 5528

Discharged: 3.11.15

YoB 1877

Married

Pension from 12.12.17

Rheumatism 20/- pw until  3/9/1921 - No gds [grounds] for further award 

13 Railway St, Bilston, Staffs

:-) M

 

Edit: CasseRae - Note on back of the MIC there is his address at date of application Dec 1942 = 1 Jordan Place, Millfields, Bilston, Staffordshire - He doesn't seem to have moved far [from our dates of note] so the Bilston area obviously offers hopes for his 1939 Register entry too [I don't have access] Good luck.

Edited 30 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
Addition

[CassieRae]

Thanks 

12 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

No, it was the whole trio and clasp that were issued on this card. The annotations indicate that the medals were issued on Supplementary medal rolls that recorded late issues as opposed to the regimental rolls that were produced at the end of WW1. 

Maybe, for whatever reason, his medal entitlement somehow wasn't originally recorded by the Army Medal Office.

 

He was discharged and on that date re War Diary the Medical Officer was examining the men's feet and I wondered if he was discharged medically because of very bad case of Trench foot but Rheumatism may have resulted from this. ' Possible Ill-health should cover it.'  Thank you for this headgardener.

[CassieRae]

12 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks to WFA/Fold3 there is a Pension Ledger card for a disability pension https://www.fold3.com/image/644300532 for Robert ASHFIELD, S Staffs 5528

Discharged: 3.11.15

YoB 1877

Married

Pension from 12.12.17

Rheumatism 20/- pw until  3/9/1921 - No gds [grounds] for further award 

13 Railway St, Bilston, Staffs

:-) M

 

Edit: CasseRae - Note on back of the MIC there is his address at date of application Dec 1942 = 1 Jordan Place, Millfields, Bilston, Staffordshire - He doesn't seem to have moved far [from our dates of note] so the Bilston area obviously offers hopes for his 1939 Register entry too [I don't have access] Good luck.

Edited 12 hours ago by Matlock1418
Addition

Thanks Matlock my sub to Fold3 has lapsed maddeningly so I lack much background info. here.

[headgardener]

24 minutes ago, CasseRae said:

He was discharged and on that date re War Diary the Medical Officer was examining the men's feet and I wondered if he was discharged medically because of very bad case of Trench foot but Rheumatism may have resulted from this.

 

He was discharged in Nov 1915 which means that he was back in the UK at that stage, and had probably already been there for a while before discharge. He'd have had to undergo various medical assessments before the army would let him go. Hard to know how long this would take for a diagnosis as vague as 'rheumatism' (which could indicate a number of things) - my guess would be that it would take at least a couple of months. He'd probably have had several episodes of the same condition before being considered for discharge. 

Edited 31 July , 2020 by headgardener

[CassieRae]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

 

He was discharged in Nov 1915 which means that he was back in the UK at that stage, and had probably already been there for a while before discharge. He'd have had to undergo various medical assessments before the army would let him go. Hard to know how long this would take for a diagnosis as vague as 'rheumatism' (which could indicate a number of things) - my guess would be that it would take at least a couple of months. He'd probably have had several episodes of the same condition before being considered for discharge. 

Thanks, I was using the 6/11/15 which it states on his Medal card. I have yet to look that date up 3/11/15 in War Diary which Matlock shows.

[headgardener]

Yes, there seems to be a mismatch between the discharge date on the MIC and that on the pension record. 

As a rough guide though, I remember researching a man who went to France in 1914 and was discharged in mid 1915 due to 'Rheumatism' or 'arthritis' (can't remember which - the terms were used interchangeably). His records show that he went sick about 2 or 3 times in December 14 to Feb 15, then was transferred to hospital in UK in about March, then was eventually discharged in about May or Jun. I suspect a similar process is likely with your man. 

[Matlock1418]

24 minutes ago, CasseRae said:

I have yet to look that date up 3/11/15 in War Diary which Matlock shows.

As headgardener has earlier said he is likely to have been back in the UK so 2SS WD won't help I fear for whichever date of discharge

Probably at/from the SS Depot [at least for admin I would presume] - Whittington Barracks, Lichfield I think.

:-) M

Edited 31 July , 2020 by Matlock1418

[kenf48]

4 hours ago, headgardener said:

He'd probably have had several episodes of the same condition before being considered for discharge. 

 

There is a medical record on FMP 2nd South Staffs admitted 3 CCS  19/11/1914 'Ague' discharged to duty 24/11/1914.

[headgardener]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

 

There is a medical record on FMP 2nd South Staffs admitted 3 CCS  19/11/1914 'Ague' discharged to duty 24/11/1914.

 

Sure its the same man? Thought he was discharged 3rd or 6th Nov 1915??

Edited 31 July , 2020 by kenf48
correct typo thank you

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

Sure its the same man? Thought he was discharged 3rd or 6th Nov 1915??

 oops senior moment I meant 1914

[headgardener]

14 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 oops senior moment I meant 1914

 

We all have ‘em....!

 

i don’t have FMP so can’t give further opinion on the medical notes (if there are any), but ‘Ague’ is a pretty old-fashioned diagnostic term which indicates that he was suffering from some form of chill or fever - maybe something trivial like a bout of what became known as ‘trench fever’? Or maybe an early episode of rheumatic fever which then recurred leading to his eventual discharge? We can only speculate......

[kenf48]

2 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

We all have ‘em....!

 

i don’t have FMP so can’t give further opinion on the medical notes (if there are any), but ‘Ague’ is a pretty old-fashioned diagnostic term which indicates that he was suffering from some form of chill or fever - maybe something trivial like a bout of what became known as ‘trench fever’? Or maybe an early episode of rheumatic fever which then recurred leading to his eventual discharge? We can only speculate......

The page shows men suffering from a number of ailments including rheumatism and anything from dysentery to dental caries. 

 

Old soldiers, I suspect he was probably suffering from a fever and exacerbated by the onset of winter in France, but as you say speculative.  The vast majority listed on the page were returned to duty after a few days rest.

[CassieRae]

18 hours ago, CasseRae said:

I have only 2 documents for this soldier and wish to be certain that he joined the 2nd Bn South Staffordshire.

I now have more documents than two and am puzzled.  I may have left this on Fold3 if it wasn't for his father and his address. So how come he was discharged from S.Staffs and/but prior to that he was with Royal Engineers? AND died 12-11-21!!

 

 

[CassieRae]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

 

There is a medical record on FMP 2nd South Staffs admitted 3 CCS  19/11/1914 'Ague' discharged to duty 24/11/1914.

I do have FMP but I cannot replicate this search/find Ken. Can you help please?

[kenf48]

6 minutes ago, CasseRae said:

I do have FMP but I cannot replicate this search/find Ken. Can you help please?

 

Here is the link

 

He is named and indexed as 'W' Ashfield not 'R' Ashfield but the number 5528 and regiment are a match to the mic (not sure your R.E. man is the same though)

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, CasseRae said:

I now have more documents than two and am puzzled.  I may have left this on Fold3 if it wasn't for his father and his address. So how come he was discharged from S.Staffs and/but prior to that he was with Royal Engineers? AND died 12-11-21!!

From where you started with a MIC [and later a closely matching Pension record] for a Bilston address I'm puzzled too as to why you now think this RE chap is perhaps the same man as 5528 [from what I can see in the thread of a 1911 census and another pension card but with a different unit, number and address] - beyond a partial similarity of names the RE one looks rather different to me = ??

:-) M

[CassieRae]

Ken thank you for that link. 

Both of you,  Ken and Matlock, have been so helpful and thank you for the work you have done in helping me but I am sorry I now think that the two men are diferent men. The one living in Staffs is not my man.  I have checked and he seems not to have married; and he did not live in Staffordshire, that I can see. I have him on several electoral directories firmly in our village. Robert died in 1921 at Oxfordshire, England; and his death was recorded at Abingdon registration office in the December quarter 1921. There are many people on Ancestry researching Robert Ashfield and no one has a marriage for him either.

The Dependant's Pension card I posted earlier has his father's names and their home address - I can't help wondering who else would this refer to if it is not 'my' Robert Ashfield? The DP card also has a Date of Death which would fall into the December Quarter of 1921.

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, CasseRae said:

The one living in Staffs is not my man

OK, that's the way it goes sometimes.

So it's Robert James Ashfield, 29112, RE, died 1921, that you are really after is it?

Good to have weeded out possible confusion from 5528 then.

I feel that, should you want it, there may possibly be some more scratching around for 29112 that might help you.

Good luck.

:-) M

[CassieRae]

22 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

OK, that's the way it goes sometimes.

So it's Robert James Ashfield, 29112, RE, died 1921, that you are really after is it?

Good to have weeded out possible confusion from 5528 then.

I feel that, should you want it, there may possibly be some more scratching around for 29112 that might help you.

Good luck.

:-) M

Thanks for that suggestion - trouble is I have the War Memorial which shows name of date and sometimes place of death - so not easy to disocver which man is which to find the correct Sevice number.