Ronald Southey

[Janey Fisher]

I'm trying to find a Ronald Southey, probably a cousin of some kind of Lt-Col. William Melvill Southey, who was in the Le Havre region in April 1916. I've been unable to find any trace of him on the forces war records website (unless he is R.G. Southey, of the Royal Artillery, but there is no family connection with the RA, so this seems unlikely). He may have been on the Staff at BEF base camp at Le Havre, perhaps, but I don't know for certain he was in the army, or what age he was. The letter implies that he is a contemporary of W.M. Southey, who was born in 1866. He is mentioned in a letter home from W.M. Southey's son, R.G.M. Southey, who was planning to 'look him up' on 17th April with greetings from the family.

Base Horse Transport Depot letter 12.04.16.pdf

[Acknown]

On Ancestry, there is a Medal Roll entry for a 2Lt RGM Southey DCLI. He joined 1st DCLI in Jan 15: 1st DCLI War Diary

Acknown

Here's his promotion to captain (London Gazette): https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29268/supplement/8258 (Apr 15).

It appears that the gunner RG Southey was Robert Gordon: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/Edinburgh/issue/13538/page/4050 (London Gazette).

 

Edited 30 July , 2020 by Acknown

[HarryBrook]

R. G. M. Southey was Robert George Melvill Southey gazetted into D.C.L.I. 16 December 1914 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29007/page/10696

[Acknown]

Ah, I missed that one!

Acknown

[sadbrewer]

From The Western Morning News, July 31st, 1916.

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive 

 

 

 

Edit...he was reported in the press on March 18th, 1915 as one of the Officers wounded at Neuve Chapelle.

Edited 30 July , 2020 by sadbrewer

[PRC]

Hi Janey,

 

I think I have a strong candidate for Ronald, but it might not be in the way you imagined. You mentioned he might be of a similar generation (cousin) to William Melvill Southey, so I started by looking for that officer.

 

The Peerage website records that:

Maj.-Gen. William Melvill Southey was born on 31 August 1866 at Hyderabad, Pakistan. He was the son of Lt.-Col. William Southey and Mary Magdalen Stewart. He was baptised on 10 October 1866 at Hyderabad, Pakistan. He married Rosa Gwendoline Lambert, daughter of George Nugent Reynolds Lambert and Elizabeth Jane Williams, on 4 May 1895 at Rajkot, India. He died on 3 July 1939 at age 72 at Farnborough, Hampshire, England.

http://www.thepeerage.com/p71022.htm

 

So I then as a starting point used the Census record for England & Wales to look for a Ronald Southey born 5 years either side of 1866. I reasoned that even if Ronald was born overseas, with 5 to 6 censuses to play with then a good chance he would turn up on at least one – and if not I could expand the age range search.

 

Instead I found a very good candidate who is present on every single census from 1871 onwards.

 

On the 1871 Census of England & Wales there is a 5 year old Ronald Southey, born St George, London, who was recorded living at 6 Harley Street, Marylebone, London. This was the household of his parents Reginald, (35, Physician, M.D. Oxon + R.C. ??), born Marylebone and his wife Frances M.

Ronald has a brother Herbert, (3). Also living in the house is Reginalds married brother, Edmund Southey, a Colonel, Royal Engineers, (retired), also born Marylebone and his wife and child.

.

By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 45 year old Ronald Southey was recorded living in the household of his widowed mother Francis Marian(?) Southey at ‘Belringham’, Sutton Valence, Kent. Ronald, a married man, is recorded as a Civil Servant, District Probate Registrar Supreme(?) Court Facilatator(?). He has been married 15 years to Helene, aged 43 and born Le Havre.The couple have had four children, all then still alive, but none were with them on the night of the census. On the 1901 Census the couple were living at Enfield along with their two daughters Edmee, aged 4, and Iva G. C. (aged 10 months), both born Westminster.

 

It’s very difficult to make out from the handwritten copy of the GRO overseas marriage register that I have access to but it looks like the marriage of Ronald Southey took place at Havre.

A marriage notice appeared in the edition of The Queen, the Lady’s newspaper dated March 2, 1895.

 

 

Courtesy FindMyPast

 

Switching back to the children I looked for the birth of the oldest child from the 1901 Census.

 

The birth of an Edmee Isabelle Southey, mothers’ maiden name Jung, was recorded in the St George Hanover Square District of London in Q1 of 1897.

Looking for other children with this combination of surnames brought up two more matches – Kathleen Elise, (Edmonton District, Q2 1905), and Margaret Helene, (Edmonton District, Q4 1909). The birth of an Iva Gladys O. Southey, mothers’ maiden name transcribed as “King”, was recorded in the St George Hanover Square District of London in Q2 of 1900.

None of the children appear to be present on the 1911 Census of England and Wales.

 

A French family tree for Helen Southey, nee Jung shows her father Karl Jung, (not the more famous one), as an arbitrator and liquidator at Havre.

https://gw.geneanet.org/bourelly?lang=en&iz=3&p=helene&n=jung

 

There is no obvious match for Ronald on the 1939 Register. There is however a death record for a 92 year old Ronald Southey in the Maidstone District of Kent in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1958.

 

The 1959 Probate Calendar records that Ronald Southey of Bishops Otham near Maidstone died on the 8th December 1958. Probate was granted at London the 17th August 1959 to Edmee Isabelle Southey, Iva Gladys Olga Southey and Kathleen Elise Southey, spinsters. His effects were valued at £119, 699 10s 8d.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Southey&yearOfDeath=1959&page=1#calendar

 

(Roughly allowing just for inflation that would be just under £2 million in 2020).

https://www.moneysorter.co.uk/calculator_inflation2.html

 

A notice in the The Times in the edition dated Wednesday, August 26,1959 regarding latest wills describes him as a Great-Nephew of Robert Southey, the poet.

 

 

Courtesy The Times Archive - restrictions on reproduction apply

 

So a Ronald Southey who through his wife seems to have had definate connections to Havre and could potentially have been living there. Such a household might have been a very welcome alternative for this young officer who all too soon would be missing on the battlefield, to eventually be remembered on the Thiepval Memorial.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Janey Fisher]

What a wonderful piece of research. Thank you so much. I feel sure you have hit the nail on the head, because my young officer was also related to the  poet Robert Southey ( his grandfather's brother, I think). I was sure it must be a cousin of some kind, though obviously distant. May I use this in my notes to the letters (properly credited to you of course)?

[PRC]

30 minutes ago, Janey Fisher said:

May I use this in my notes to the letters (properly credited to you of course)?

 

Of course you can - and no need to credit me, as nearly all of it is openly in the public doman, (and not just here) or otherwise freely available. I just tried to pull it together into a coherent narrative

 

Glad to help,

Peter

[Toby Brayley]

On 31/07/2020 at 04:52, PRC said:

Hi Janey,

 

I think I have a strong candidate for Ronald, but it might not be in the way you imagined. You mentioned he might be of a similar generation (cousin) to William Melvill Southey, so I started by looking for that officer.

 

The Peerage website records that:

Maj.-Gen. William Melvill Southey was born on 31 August 1866 at Hyderabad, Pakistan. He was the son of Lt.-Col. William Southey and Mary Magdalen Stewart. He was baptised on 10 October 1866 at Hyderabad, Pakistan. He married Rosa Gwendoline Lambert, daughter of George Nugent Reynolds Lambert and Elizabeth Jane Williams, on 4 May 1895 at Rajkot, India. He died on 3 July 1939 at age 72 at Farnborough, Hampshire, England.

http://www.thepeerage.com/p71022.htm

 

So I then as a starting point used the Census record for England & Wales to look for a Ronald Southey born 5 years either side of 1866. I reasoned that even if Ronald was born overseas, with 5 to 6 censuses to play with then a good chance he would turn up on at least one – and if not I could expand the age range search.

 

Instead I found a very good candidate who is present on every single census from 1871 onwards.

 

On the 1871 Census of England & Wales there is a 5 year old Ronald Southey, born St George, London, who was recorded living at 6 Harley Street, Marylebone, London. This was the household of his parents Reginald, (35, Physician, M.D. Oxon + R.C. ??), born Marylebone and his wife Frances M.

Ronald has a brother Herbert, (3). Also living in the house is Reginalds married brother, Edmund Southey, a Colonel, Royal Engineers, (retired), also born Marylebone and his wife and child.

.

By the time of the 1911 Census of England & Wales the 45 year old Ronald Southey was recorded living in the household of his widowed mother Francis Marian(?) Southey at ‘Belringham’, Sutton Valence, Kent. Ronald, a married man, is recorded as a Civil Servant, District Probate Registrar Supreme(?) Court Facilatator(?). He has been married 15 years to Helene, aged 43 and born Le Havre.The couple have had four children, all then still alive, but none were with them on the night of the census. On the 1901 Census the couple were living at Enfield along with their two daughters Edmee, aged 4, and Iva G. C. (aged 10 months), both born Westminster.

 

It’s very difficult to make out from the handwritten copy of the GRO overseas marriage register that I have access to but it looks like the marriage of Ronald Southey took place at Havre.

A marriage notice appeared in the edition of The Queen, the Lady’s newspaper dated March 2, 1895.

 

 

Courtesy FindMyPast

 

Switching back to the children I looked for the birth of the oldest child from the 1901 Census.

 

The birth of an Edmee Isabelle Southey, mothers’ maiden name Jung, was recorded in the St George Hanover Square District of London in Q1 of 1897.

Looking for other children with this combination of surnames brought up two more matches – Kathleen Elise, (Edmonton District, Q2 1905), and Margaret Helene, (Edmonton District, Q4 1909). The birth of an Iva Gladys O. Southey, mothers’ maiden name transcribed as “King”, was recorded in the St George Hanover Square District of London in Q2 of 1900.

None of the children appear to be present on the 1911 Census of England and Wales.

 

A French family tree for Helen Southey, nee Jung shows her father Karl Jung, (not the more famous one), as an arbitrator and liquidator at Havre.

https://gw.geneanet.org/bourelly?lang=en&iz=3&p=helene&n=jung

 

There is no obvious match for Ronald on the 1939 Register. There is however a death record for a 92 year old Ronald Southey in the Maidstone District of Kent in the October to December quarter, (Q4), of 1958.

 

The 1959 Probate Calendar records that Ronald Southey of Bishops Otham near Maidstone died on the 8th December 1958. Probate was granted at London the 17th August 1959 to Edmee Isabelle Southey, Iva Gladys Olga Southey and Kathleen Elise Southey, spinsters. His effects were valued at £119, 699 10s 8d.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Southey&yearOfDeath=1959&page=1#calendar

 

(Roughly allowing just for inflation that would be just under £2 million in 2020).

https://www.moneysorter.co.uk/calculator_inflation2.html

 

A notice in the The Times in the edition dated Wednesday, August 26,1959 regarding latest wills describes him as a Great-Nephew of Robert Southey, the poet.

 

 

Courtesy The Times Archive - restrictions on reproduction apply

 

So a Ronald Southey who through his wife seems to have had definate connections to Havre and could potentially have been living there. Such a household might have been a very welcome alternative for this young officer who all too soon would be missing on the battlefield, to eventually be remembered on the Thiepval Memorial.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Sorry to resurrect the thread, and just by the off chance I stumbled on it. I have this envelope address to Ronald Southey Esq, sent from South Africa in 1900, addressed to 42 Grosvenor road, note the probate stamp, just an odd bit of synchronicity! 

 

 

 

 

[Janey Fisher]

Brilliant. I'm glad you resurrected the thread.