Retreat form Antwerp

[Herman Joustra]

Hello,

 

Regarding the Second Brigade of the Royal Naval Division, I am trying to establish what the order of retreat wasfrom Antwerp on the 8th of October 1914, trying to combine the 'stories' from different sources. In other words, I'd like to know in what order the four battalions of the Second Brigade from the Royal Naval Division - Nelson, Anson, Hood and Howe - left Antwerp, and in what order they made it to Zwijndrecht and further. 

 

- In 'Nelson at War', Roy Swales writes that the Nelson battalion gathered behind the trenches - that lay between fort 7 en redoubt 16 - and left at 7.30 pm.

- In 'The Hood battalion' Leonard Sellers also writes that the retreat began at 7.30 pm and then cites Commodore Backhouse, who says that the leading companies of Hood and Howe reached Wilrijk at 7.00 pm (so actually half an hour before the retreat began according tot Sellers and Swales), followed by the remainder of these battalions. Backhouse also says that Nelson and Anson went separately. Which would mean the took a different route, I suppose, Anson and Nelson being much nearer to the river Scheldt

- Sellers also says that the Anson battalion reached the pontoon bridge over the river Scheldt 'after the Hood and Howe battalions'. There is no mentioning of the Nelson battalion. Would Nelson have been the last to reach the bridge? Because Sellers says that the second brigade reached Zwijndrecht at 10 pm, while Swales writes that Nelson reached the bridge at 10.30 pm.

 

If Nelson would have been the last to reach the bridge, that would seem a bit strange to me, because this battalion was closest to this bridge. And their route went through the western suburbs of Antwerp, according to Sellers, past the burning tanks of Hoboken, on a line east of the river Scheldt. While Hood and Howe, came via Wilrijk and also passed the burning tanks at Hoboken. 

 

Any ideas, suggestions, or facts?

[AOK4]

18 minutes ago, Herman Joustra said:

If Nelson would have been the last to reach the bridge, that would seem a bit strange to me, because this battalion was closest to this bridge. And their route went through the western suburbs of Antwerp, according to Sellers, past the burning tanks of Hoboken, on a line east of the river Scheldt. While Hood and Howe, came via Wilrijk and also passed the burning tanks at Hoboken. 

 

 

 

 

Nelson being the last would make perfect sense as they had to cover the retreat probably being the closest to the bridge. You would have the furthest unit passing the bridge first etc, so that all units' retreat would be covered and to prevent being cut off from the bridge.

[Herman Joustra]

Well yes, I can understand the way you are reasoning. It sounds logical to. But it’s also the mentioned hours/times that are mentioned by the sources.

 

Let’s indeed say that Nelson was the last. They retreated at 7.30 pm according to Swales. That would mean then that the Howe and Hood battalions must have retreated before 7.30 pm. And not also at 7.30 pm as Leonard Sellers states. Earlier than 7.30 pm seems more probable because Backhouse states that the first companies of Hood and Howe arrived at Wilrijk at 7 pm, that is prior to 7.30 pm. Could it be that with ‘followed by the remainder of the battalions at 8.30’, Backhouse was referring to Anson and Nelson, and not the other companies of Hood and Howe?

 

Very interesting, but puzzling...

Edited 29 July , 2020 by Herman Joustra
Mistyping

[horatio2]

On 29/07/2020 at 16:46, Herman Joustra said:

Could it be that with ‘followed by the remainder of the battalions at 8.30’, Backhouse was referring to Anson and Nelson, and not the other companies of Hood and Howe?

Very unlikely since you have mis-quoted Backhouse (per Sellers). The correct wording is:-

 

"The leading companies of Howe and Hood reached Wilrijk [i.e. vicinity of Fort 6] at 7 pm, followed by the remainder of these battalions [i.e. Howe and Hood] at 8.30 ... the Anson and Nelson Battalions having gone on separately [in other words - in advance of Howe and Hood and this does not imply "a different route"].

 

it would be nice to be able to record precise movement timings but in this case it is a bit like counting angels on a pin-head. Times should be taken as 'INDICATIVE'. Here's why:-

 

I think it is fanciful to try and tie down even a single battalion to a specific time. When does a battalion of 1,000 men reach Point A? When the first platoon arrives? When the first company has passed Point A? When the entire battalion has passed? It is even more inappropriate to talk of precise times for arrival or departure of a brigade of nearly 4,000 men at a particular location.

 

Place these movement 'timings' in the context of the chaos of the evacuation of the civilian refugee population of Antwerp. fighting for the same road-space and it is readily apparent that any timings, especially timings for large bodies of men (multiple battalions or brigades) can only be indicative. If a battalion starts to move at 7.30 pm, when is it actually moving on the road as a coherent unit? The men at the back may not actually move until much later. Sub Lt Clark of Nelson Bn recorded:

"There were five complete battalions all starting off at the same time and this caused a certain confusion at first, but we got separated out very soon and began to go forward. Then people began to straggle ... we were fairly well muddled up and stopped to reorganise."

 

The RMLI battalions have not even been mentioned but they added to the crush on the road. Chatham Bn was on the right (west) of the RND line, nearest the River Scheldt.  Chatham Bn War Diary: " 8 October 7 a.m.  Chatham Bn ordered to relieve Belgian troops on Redoubt line from SCHELDT to Redoubt No. 16 inclusive. [This position for Chatham Bn is not shown in the map at Post #1. Nelson Bn held the line from Redoubt No. 16 to Fort 7 with Anson Bn on their left between Forts 7 and 6.]  7.30 p.m.  orders that the Bn was to retire through ANTWERP and cross the SCHELDT by the Bridge of Boats and march by ZWYNDRECHT to entrain at BEVEREN WAES. About 8 p.m. the Belgian infantry retired.  8.30 p.m. Chatham Bn moved as ordered. Little military formation could be maintained on account of the darkness and throngs of refugees’ carts and transport of all kinds." (N.B. Chatham Bn apparently got under way one hour after Nelson Bn, on their left.)

 

Per RM Brigade War Diary, Deal and Plymouth RMLI Bns, in reserve [at CHATEAU ROUGE, WAESDONCK] were "ordered to retire from ANTWERP to ST NICHOLAS ... and moved off about 1900. Brigade HQ remained in ignorance of these instructions, but on ascertaining that battalions had retired, themselves left about 2150. The retirement of the Brigade was thus affected by units independently." Lt Col Evelegh RMLI (2 i/c Deal Bn) noted that they were "ordered to retire at once by Porte de Malines [Mechelen Gate, Antwerp]" and  recorded that, on arrival at the bridge of boats "We were in all 5 to 6 thousand men." 

 

On 29/07/2020 at 15:05, Herman Joustra said:

Sellers also says that the Anson battalion reached the pontoon bridge over the river Scheldt 'after the Hood and Howe battalions'.

Sellers actually says "The Reverend Foster, who was with the Anson Battalion and came up just after the Hood and Howe..."

The Rev Foster's actual words in his book are: "Marching across country to a road which lay to the south of the city [this must be the road(s) which ran from Wilrijk to the River Scheldt and Hoboken] , we joined the Hood and Howe battalions. After a halt of about half an hour the Drake Battlion of the First Naval Brigade joined us ... we were forced to pass by the blazing petrol tanks at Hoboken."

 

Notwithstanding the apparent discrepancies in timing - the word "about" features a great deal in narratives and war diaries - I think the order of march via the line of Forts and Hoboken fires to the bridge of boats and onward across the Scheldt to St Gilles Waes was: Group One - Chatham Bn, Nelson Bn and Anson Bn;  Group 2 Hood Bn, Howe Bn and Drake Bn; Group 3 - Deal Bn and Plymouth Bn. Noting that battalions within these Groups, and vanguards and rearguards of the Groups were often hopelessly inter-twangled.

 

 

On 29/07/2020 at 15:26, AOK4 said:

Nelson being the last would make perfect sense as they had to cover the retreat probably being the closest to the bridge. You would have the furthest unit passing the bridge first etc, so that all units' retreat would be covered and to prevent being cut off from the bridge.

Noting that it was Chatham Bn, not Nelson Bn, closest to the river, I think this notion ignores the reality of the chaotic situation at Antwerp. The reality was that Deal and Plymouth Bns RMLI (Group 3) were the de- facto rearguard to the five naval battalions in Groups 1 and 2. Portsmouth Bn RMLI was the only battalion to be ordered to act as rearguard to the three naval battalions of Cdre Henderson's 1st Brigade - all headed for interment or captivity having received the order to move too late.

 

Moving on from the bridge of boats to the station at St Gilles Waes on the morning of 9 October, there are several reports of arrival times at the station:

Sub Lt Clark (Nelson) = 8 a.m.;  3rd (Marine) Bde WD = "Bde HQ, Chatham, Plymouth and Deal Bns reached ST GILLES WAES about 0900. Entrainment in refugee trains for OSTEND was completed at about 1100.";  Chatham Bn WD = "from 4 to 8 a.m. entrained as trains became available.";  2i/c/ Deal Bn = about 6 a.m.;  Revd Foster (Anson) about 6 a.m. ;  Sellers (p.23) = "... the 2nd Brigade ... reached St Gilles Waes railway station at 7 a.m." ; and, a complete outlier, Lt Cdr J Nicol (Nelson) "arrived about noon on Friday [9 Oct]" I suspect the reality of the arrival of perhaps 6,000 men of eight battalions at a country railway station is not accurately reflected in these timings.

 

 

 

Edited 30 July , 2020 by horatio2

[Herman Joustra]

Wow, Horatio2, what an extensive and elaborate answer! I thank you for that. Reading it and letting it sink in, I can only say that I think you are right. What is the meaning of the exact time, the exact hour, in such a chaos...And does a battalion arrive at point A when the first man gets there, or the last?

What I am interested in, amongst other things, is how it is possible that Anson did not lose one single man, Drake lost two or three, and other battalions lost more (interned in Holland or POW in Germany) during the retreat. But I guess it’s impossible to find an answer other than that the situation was chaotic, with tens of thousands of people on the move, so men could easily get cut of from their battalion/platoon.

 

But then again, I will keep on searching. And when I find something interesting I will post it here of course.
 

 

[Pompey]

The investigation and report of the affair at Moerbeke, Belgium on the 9/10 October carried out by a Court of Inquiry on the 24 Nov 1914 at Forton Barracks is well worth a read if you get a chance to get to NA.  It also gives a good insight into the minds of the men at the time as they were retreating through Antwerp and the chaos of the time before the events at Moerbeke.

 

 

[Herman Joustra]

10 hours ago, Pompey said:

The investigation and report of the affair at Moerbeke, Belgium on the 9/10 October carried out by a Court of Inquiry on the 24 Nov 1914 at Forton Barracks is well worth a read if you get a chance to get to NA.  It also gives a good insight into the minds of the men at the time as they were retreating through Antwerp and the chaos of the time before the events at Moerbeke.

 

 

 That sounds very interesting. But I am afraid that will be difficult for the near future. I live in the Netherlands...

[Pompey]

Herman,

if you PM me with you e-mail I have found photos I took of several pages (30+) of the report when I last read it.  I should be able to put them into a zip file and e-mail them to you if you are interested ?

 

Regards

Pompey

[Niko]

Waasdonk is just to the North of where I put the RM brigade on my map, used in post#1. It's slightly to the west of Fort3, on the other side of the Krijgsbaan. That explains why units who were stationed there, used the Mechelsepoort.

 

The fact that some units suffered more prisoners and losses then others, is due to the fact that they were simply on different trains then the one ambushed in Moerbeke , and many on that train were 1st Naval Brigade.

 

Another detail: there were actually 3 boat bridges across the Schelde, One near Sint Anna, One near Burcht and one near Rupelmonde.

 

The Belgian Amry for the biggest part used the railbridge at Temse, right under the noses of the Germans.