Is this really an “East Yorkshire Regt (TF) lapel badge”??

[headgardener]

Does anyone recognise the lapel badge in the accompanying photo?

I bought this photo many years ago, it shows a young man in civilian clothes with what appears to be a small circular enamelled badge on his lapel. It was signed and dated in 1916. Someone (presumably a dealer) had written “East Yorkshire Regiment (TF) lapel badge” on the reverse. It doesn’t look like an E York star to my eyes and, in any case, I don’t think any E York TF battalion had its own special badge.

This man’s name doesn’t show up in the MIC’s, but it does in the Mercantile Marine medal cards , so I’m wondering whether the badge might have some connection to the sea. The photo was taken in West Hartlepool and the Mercantile Marine medal card gives an address in West Hartlepool, so maybe there’s a connection to the town.

I’d be grateful for any thoughts you may have......!

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

I don't know if you can examine the photo through a magnifier (linen tester), but I think that the dealer was saying that it is the old comrades lapel pin badge enclosed.

 

Edited 27 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

Yes, I can see what you mean. Maybe it’s just the angle that the badge is at, but don’t you think the points on the star look much longer and narrower than that on the Easy York’s badge? I’ve tried to do a close-up but the enamel and metal of the badge are slightly over exposed, and it pixelates quite badly when I try to enlarge it.

 

 

Also, I thought he looks rather young to be an ‘Old Comrade’, but maybe he just had naturally youthful looks.

Edited 27 July , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

Incidentally, in case anyone’s wondering, I understand that his name is Herbert Watson Rowley. His Mercantile Marine medal card (MMWM & BWM) gives his year of birth as ‘1921’ which is clearly a mistake! (It’s the year his medals were issued)

[FROGSMILE]

I don’t think it’s exactly the same lapel pin.  There must be a reason why the dealer made the specific annotation “TF”, so I suspect it was a pattern of pin particular to that unit.  As for his age, perhaps he was medically discharged after wounding.  That would not change his status as a veteran.  The star shape goes back a very long way for the regiment and the points, or rays of the star were frequently depicted as long points in some earlier representations.  Good examples are the enclosed regimental button and waist belt clasp.  Notice how on the latter the points extend right to the edge of the circular backing.

 

 

Edited 27 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

Many thanks, as ever, for your informative post. I accept that you’re probably right about it being an E Yorks ‘Old Comrades’ badge. My point about his apparently youthful appearance is that the photo is dated 1916 and he doesn’t have an MIC in which case any military service would have had to be pre-War. Looking at the image again I wonder if he’s simply not as young as he looks?

 

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

There must be a reason why the dealer made the specific annotation “TF”, so I suspect it was a pattern of pin particular to that unit.  

 

You may have a much less cynical view of dealers than myself....! I have lots of examples of mistaken / misleading / totally-made-up annotations on cards like this one - in fact, I’ve been thinking of writing an illustrated thread on the subject (or a blog post, or whatever). In this particular instance the annotation “East Yorkshire Regiment (TF) lapel badge” turned a fairly ordinary portrait post-card (worth, at the time I bought it, about £1 or less) into a ‘named’ ‘military’ card for which I had to pay £5. Interestingly (I thought), the card was signed and dated at the Spanish port of Huelva, which made me think he was a young Mercantile Marine officer employed on cargo ships transporting iron ore and other materiel to the UK from the Rio Tinto mines in southern Spain. The fact that there’s a MMWM card in this man’s name suggests that I may have been right. Now I need to establish the E Yorks Regt connection......

[FROGSMILE]

I entirely concur that things are not clear cut and we can only speculate on what the true circumstances might’ve been. I certainly did not mean to suggest that all dealers are beacons of honesty and fair trading, but that for him to be so specific as to mention TF and a particular regiment, he might have used a loupe, or similar to examine the photo.  It’s difficult otherwise to see how else and for what purpose the regimental association might have been made. He might have said Coldstream Guards, who also use an uncrowned star, if he was merely wishing to add value to the photo.

Edited 28 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

What I see...

Not sure I can see many star points on the lapel badge, I see a background St. George or St Patrick cross, (depending on orientation of the badge) with a crest in front. 

Ok possibly some star points on that

 

[headgardener]

20 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What I see...

Not sure I can see many star points on the lapel badge, I see a background St. George or St Patrick cross, (depending on orientation of the badge) with a crest in front. 

Ok possibly some star points on that

 

 

Yes, I did wonder about the possibility of a cross, possibly even a St George and St Patrick combined. Thank you - All opinions are very welcome!

 

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s difficult otherwise to see how else and for what purpose the regimental association might have been made. He might have said Coldstream Guards, who also use an uncrowned star, if he was merely wishing to add value to the photo.

 

True. From my experience, the post-card & photo dealers who did had a very basic (but not in-depth) knowledge of military badges, uniforms and/or insignia were the ones most likely to add dodgy but ‘authentic sounding’ annotations to cards. I think most of the military dealers knew how they might appear to their more knowledgable customers if they tried to make their stock seem more interesting than it really was. I’m sure you’re probably right in this instance though.

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Yes, I did wonder about the possibility of a cross, possibly even a St George and St Patrick combined. Thank you - All opinions are very welcome!

 

 

 

True. From my experience, the post-card & photo dealers who did had a very basic (but not in-depth) knowledge of military badges, uniforms and/or insignia were the ones most likely to add dodgy but ‘authentic sounding’ annotations to cards. I think most of the military dealers knew how they might appear to their more knowledgable customers if they tried to make their stock seem more interesting than it really was. I’m sure you’re probably right in this instance though.

Looking at the quality of the photo and assuming that you have it in physical form, then using a loupe, or (better still) a quality linen tester should enable you to see precisely what’s on the lapel pin?

 

There appear to be 8-points, albeit one obscured somewhat by reflected light, which at least matches the East York’s star.  The Mark 1 eyeball has limitations though, especially through the medium of a digital screen. Personally I think that it probably takes the form of the regimental crest shown above, comprising just a star (superimposed on a disc) with Roman numerals IV at centre.

Edited 28 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

What I see...

Not sure I can see many star points on the lapel badge, I see a background St. George or St Patrick cross, (depending on orientation of the badge) with a crest in front. 

Ok possibly some star points on that

 

 

I must say I agree: that's what I see - a cross with a star superimposed.

[FROGSMILE]

44 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

I must say I agree: that's what I see - a cross with a star superimposed.

 

That's quite feasible as a background Steven, the East Yorks were one of several, non-Royal, English line regiments to use the Cross of St George for their regimental colour and had used such a backing to their colours as early as 1687.

 

[headgardener]

I do have the original image, and I do have a good lens but can’t seem to find it atm. I recall getting a glass on it when I bought the card but couldn’t see much more than what we can see on the digital images. Will see if i can get a better image somehow. In the meantime, here’s the image slightly rotated so it’s more closely aligned to the edge of the lapel, in case it makes anything clearer.

 

 

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

I am quite sure that a few years ago i  bought one of these East Yorks lapel badges, and that it has the "4th" battallion wording on it, that would fit in why it has TF written by the dealer, as the 4th was a TF unit. I am off this week so will try to find it in the loft if need be, Ian.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, EAST YORKSHIRE said:

I am quite sure that a few years ago i  bought one of these East Yorks lapel badges, and that it has the "4th" battallion wording on it, that would fit in why it has TF written by the dealer, as the 4th was a TF unit. I am off this week so will try to find it in the loft if need be, Ian.

 

That will be excellent Ian, I hope that you can find it.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 28 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

2 hours ago, EAST YORKSHIRE said:

I am quite sure that a few years ago i  bought one of these East Yorks lapel badges, and that it has the "4th" battallion wording on it, that would fit in why it has TF written by the dealer, as the 4th was a TF unit. I am off this week so will try to find it in the loft if need be, Ian.

 

Ian - thank you, would love to see it if not too much trouble for you! 

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

I am going up to the loft soon!  will let you know asap, Ian.

[headgardener]

 

 

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

3 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

 

I am a hoarder, I made Mr Trebus look like a minimalist.....

[headgardener]

33 minutes ago, EAST YORKSHIRE said:

I am a hoarder, I made Mr Trebus look like a minimalist.....

 

I truly feel your pain...... 

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

FOUND IT!!! will fathom out how to post photo!, in the meantime-it says around the outside " 1/4 th Batt.East Yorkshire Regt",  now give me two days to figure how to post photo...........

Edited 31 July , 2020 by EAST YORKSHIRE

[headgardener]

I was just about to ask for volunteers to mount a search party......!

 

many thanks for digging it out, Ian. We await your photographic efforts with bated breath.......

[EAST YORKSHIRE]

I think they are on now, 

[headgardener]

On 28/07/2020 at 14:19, headgardener said:

 

21 minutes ago, EAST YORKSHIRE said:

 

 

[headgardener]

5 minutes ago, EAST YORKSHIRE said:

I think they are on now, 

 

Many thanks Ian! Really appreciate you making the effort. Bet you found some nice things that you forgot you had...... I know i do every time I go hunting for stuff!