Are these girls VAD nurses?

[Fovant]

I have some photo albums assembled by my ‘uncle’ (maternal aunt’s husband). One consists of members of his family and includes these three pictures.

 

Two show the same two girls in uniform. I think they are VADs. They appear to have a Red Cross cap badge, articulated county badges on their tunics and JWC VAD General Service badges on their sleeves. One also has the white JWC length of service stripes, which I think were introduced in 1917. The pictures have suffered over the past 100 years and I have pulled back as much detail as I can from the originals.

 

The third picture shows a nurse standing in a school playground. She is wearing a dark coloured veil. I believe nurse instructors wore red veils to differentiate them from their students. Maybe the school classrooms were being utilised for training purposes.

 

My initial thought was that these girls were two younger sisters of my uncle’s mother – Irene and Florence Videan – as they would have been about the right age. The family lived in Aldershot.

 

There are no Videans in the Red Cross VAD lists, however. I have also looked up auxiliary hospitals in the Aldershot district of Hampshire and Surrey and there don’t appear to be any schools listed either. VADs weren’t only nurses, so maybe they had other duties.

 

The uniforms do not appear to be FANY, Post Office or Police, so any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

Two brothers served. One was in the 1st Battalion, The Rifle Brigade and became a POW. The other served with the Hertfordshire Yeomanry and 1st Dragoon Guards.

[FROGSMILE]

The ladies in the dark uniforms are St John’s Ambulance members.  Working together with the British Red Cross (BRC) in a successful collaboration, St John’s helped form the Voluntary Aid Detachment (VAD) nurses who acted as auxiliaries supporting military nurses in a range of different hospitals across Britain and Ireland (a few also went to France).  
 

The lady on her own looks like a civilian nurse and wears the more old fashioned ‘long cap’.  In some nursing organisations the long cap was used as a mark of seniority but I’m not sure that is the case here.  Most commonly the cap was white so seeing a dark one is a little unusual.  She might even be a school nurse, although they did not really become common until between the wars as few state schools could afford them. 
 

The St John’s nurses are wearing the outdoors uniform rather than the ward uniform of VAD nurses, so they are presumably out for the day.  You can see the special St John’s badge on their left sleeves and the white stripes on the upper arms.   “From May 1916, VADs employed in home hospitals under the direction of the Joint War Committee were allowed to wear a white horizontal stripe on each sleeve of their work dress, four inches below the shoulder, to indicate that they had served continuously for a period of at least thirteen months.  The white stripe acknowledged length of service but was not a recommendation as to capability or competence.”  See: http://www.fairestforce.co.uk/5.html

 

Also: https://www.qaranc.co.uk/voluntary-aid-detachment.php

Images courtesy of Inverill and SJAB Museums.

 

Edited 26 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

Pedantically, it's St John Ambulance, not St John's. Fantastic set of badges, though.

[headgardener]

The badge on the lower part of the sleeves in the 1st two photos is the Joint War Committee 'General Service' badge which, by 1917, was only worn by non-nursing VAD's. Given that these photos must date from no earlier than late 1916 it's unlikely that they were nurses. 

[FROGSMILE]

54 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Pedantically, it's St John Ambulance, not St John's. Fantastic set of badges, though.

Thank you Steven, I did wonder if I’d got that right.

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, headgardener said:

The badge on the lower part of the sleeves in the 1st two photos is the Joint War Committee 'General Service' badge which, by 1917, was only worn by non-nursing VAD's. Given that these photos must date from no earlier than late 1916 it's unlikely that they were nurses. 

I had initially posted the general service badge, but the mention of the white stripes being worn by staff of the “Home Hospitals” suggested that the circular cloth badge would match that category.  Also it seems that the outdoor dress was worn by nursing staff when on days out (‘scarlet finders’ refers).  The photo does suggest the general service badge though so I’ve reposted it below for the benefit of the OP.

 

Edited 26 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

Doesn't the BRC VAD register list non-nursing VADs? Cooks, cleaners, drivers, dispensers, store keepers etc. I see there are no hits for Videan but perhaps the cards are missing.

TEW

[headgardener]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I had initially posted the general service badge, but the mention of the white stripes being worn by staff of the “Home Hospitals” suggests that the circular cloth badge would match that category.  Also it seems that the outdoor dress was worn by nursing staff when on days out (‘scarlet finders’ refers).

 

Non nursing VAD's were employed in hospitals (stores, admin, drivers, etc). I'm pretty sure that the JWC GS badge indicates that the wearer was on non-nursing duties. Will check and post back! 

Just now, TEW said:

Doesn't the BRC VAD register list non-nursing VADs?

 

Yes, it does. 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Non nursing VAD's were employed in hospitals (stores, admin, drivers, etc). I'm pretty sure that the JWC GS badge indicates that the wearer was on non-nursing duties. Will check and post back! 

 

Yes, it does. 

Below are the other badges.  St John Nursing staff generally wore brassards over their ward dresses and were in trouble if they didn’t, but I don’t know if they transferred the brassard to their outdoor dress, or if what we see is a separate badge (phone screen too small to discern).

 

 

Edited 26 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

I’ve checked, and the JWC GS badge was worn from 1917 onwards exclusively by General Service (i.e. non nursing) VAD’s (I don’t have a specific reference to regulation, but this info came directly from Sue Light). So the 2 ladies in the earlier photos must be non-nursing General Service VAD’s.

 

Below is an example from my own collection of a hospital QM’s clerk wearing the badge on her outdoors uniform.

 

[FROGSMILE]

Great picture, but it still doesn’t explain the wearing of white arm stripes, given the specific reference to Home Hospitals in the quote above.  I can only assume that there is some cross over here, or perhaps a misinterpretation of the record regarding who could wear what.  Like you I certainly think that they’re wearing the GS version of the circular arm badge.

Edited 26 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Fovant]

Thanks to everyone for their valuable insights.

 

The nurse in the school playground may be post-war as the photo is in much better shape, just the the red/dark veil question which will probably remain a mystery.

[headgardener]

17 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Great picture, but it still doesn’t explain the wearing of white arm stripes, given the specific reference to Home Hospitals in the quote above.  I can only assume that there is some cross over here, or perhaps a misinterpretation of the record regarding who could wear what.  Like you I certainly think that they’re wearing the GS version of the circular arm badge.

 

Might the answer be simply that the stripes were for wear by VAD’s in general (whether employed in nursing or not) who were working in home hospitals? They’re only a continuous service award, so it would seem a bit unfair to restrict their wear just to nursing VAD’s.

i have a group photo somewhere of some VAD’s at Rolvenden in Kent, and several are wearing the stripes, and I’m sure that includes some of the ancillary staff.

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Might the answer be simply that the stripes were for wear by VAD’s in general (whether employed in nursing or not) who were working in home hospitals? They’re only a continuous service award, so it would seem a bit unfair to restrict their wear just to nursing VAD’s.

i have a group photo somewhere of some VAD’s at Rolvenden in Kent, and several are wearing the stripes, and I’m sure that includes some of the ancillary staff.

It seems likely I agree, but that also suggests that nurses employed ‘at home’  (i.e. not in France) would wear the the home hospitals badge, and just the administrative, non-nursing staff, wore the GS badge.  The problem with that is that the brassard badge that seems to be worn by all nurses on their ward dresses is neither of those badges and instead a generic badge with the St John cross at centre.  It begs the question: who did wear the home hospital badge if not the home hospital nurses? 

[headgardener]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It begs the question: who did wear the home hospital badge if not the home hospital nurses? 

 

‘Home Hospital’ badges were worn by members of the ‘Home Hospital Reserve’ - these were St John Ambulance personnel (I’ve only come across men, but assume it could include women although I’m not sure about this point) who agreed to serve as RAMC reservists (in the case of women I assume that they might serve as QAIMNSR or similar).

 

EDIT: I took the section from your earlier post to refer to personnel literally serving in hospitals at home, rather than Home Hospital Reservists.

Edited 26 July , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

Here’s a crop from a photo of a Home Hospital Reserve man in December 1914. He was already in the RAMC when this photo was taken. I have another of a StJA man in StJA uniform but with an RAMC regimental number and in an RAMC camp awaiting deployment to France. I understand that St John Ambulancers (if I can describe them as such) provided a pool of trained personnel who were familiar with uniform, drill, and had a similar rank structure to the army. Following their successful deployment to S Africa the army encouraged the formation within StJA Of a corps of reservists who could step straight into the RAMC (which, by the outbreak of WW1, was still barely 15 years old).

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, headgardener said:

Here’s a crop from a photo of a Home Hospital Reserve man in December 1914. He was already in the RAMC when this photo was taken. I have another of a StJA man in StJA uniform but with an RAMC regimental number and in an RAMC camp awaiting deployment to France. I understand that St John Ambulancers (if I can describe them as such) provided a pool of trained personnel who were familiar with uniform, drill, and had a similar rank structure to the army. Following their successful deployment to S Africa the army encouraged the formation within StJA Of a corps of reservists who could step straight into the RAMC (which, by the outbreak of WW1, was still barely 15 years old).

 

 

 

Thank you, that makes complete sense now.  Strangely enough we had a thread recently based upon a man wearing Army uniform (SD) with St John collar badges and a RAMC cap badge, who I had taken to be one of these Reserve men exactly as you have described them.  Whether he was or not was left open (unproven), as his entitlement to the RAMC cap badge was questionable and he did not seem to serve beyond the area of the evacuation ports.

Edited 26 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

21 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you, that makes complete sense now.  Strangely enough we had a thread recently based upon a man wearing Army uniform (SD) with St John collar badges and a RAMC cap badge, who I had taken to be one of these Reserve men exactly as you have described them.  Whether he was or not was left open (unproven), as his entitlement to the RAMC cap badge was questionable and he did not seem to serve beyond the area of the evacuation ports.

 

Yes, I contributed to that thread. I say he wasn’t an HHR man because he had a VAD service record covering the period in question and his medals were issued by BRCS & StJJ - and there was no evidence of service in the RAMC except for his cap badge. I suggested that either he was wearing someone else’s cap (there was lots of hat swapping in that photo) or there was some decision at local level to allow him (& his comrades?) to wear an RAMC cap badge to aid his passage through guard posts and check points manned by people who, in the early moths of the war (he arrived in France in early October ‘14), might not be familiar with civilian aid organisations like StJA. I know that wouldn’t fit with Regulation, but I’d say in those early days that it was plausible and the legal ramifications were not so serious.

Edited 26 July , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Yes, I contributed to that thread. I say he wasn’t an HHR man because he had a VAD service record covering the period in question and his medals were issued by BRCS & StJJ - and there was no evidence of service in the RAMC except for his cap badge. I suggested that either he was wearing someone else’s cap (there was lots of hat swapping in that photo) or there was some decision at local level to allow him (& his comrades?) to wear an RAMC cap badge to aid his passage through guard posts and check points manned by people who, in the early moths of the war (he arrived in France in early October ‘14), might not be familiar with civilian aid organisations like StJA. I know that wouldn’t fit with Regulation, but I’d say in those early days that it was plausible and the legal ramifications were not so serious.

Understood, although I continue to hold the views I expressed at the time.  I’d forgotten about your input, the threads pass quickly as you know.

[squirrel]

15 hours ago, headgardener said:

Here’s a crop from a photo of a Home Hospital Reserve man in December 1914. He was already in the RAMC when this photo was taken. I have another of a StJA man in StJA uniform but with an RAMC regimental number and in an RAMC camp awaiting deployment to France. I understand that St John Ambulancers (if I can describe them as such) provided a pool of trained personnel who were familiar with uniform, drill, and had a similar rank structure to the army. Following their successful deployment to S Africa the army encouraged the formation within StJA Of a corps of reservists who could step straight into the RAMC (which, by the outbreak of WW1, was still barely 15 years old).

FWIW he is from the London Division of the St John Ambulance Brigade - Prince of Wales's Feathers on the collar is the clue.

[headgardener]

Just now, squirrel said:

FWIW he is from the London Division of the St John Ambulance Brigade - Prince of Wales's Feathers on the collar is the clue.

 

Ah.... I was wondering about that. Many thanks! Makes sense as I have a photo of him in the grounds of (I think) St James’ Palace. Was wondering whether he was Royal Household staff or something.

[squirrel]

I was a SJAB Cadet in the London District in a previous existence - all the adults in the unit wore the POW's Feathers on their jacket collars.

[FROGSMILE]

It’s interesting that that particular design of the PofW feathers, nicknamed ‘cricket stumps’, was popular for some considerable time but then fell out of favour.  It was used in the British Army as the cap badge of the Welsh Brigade from 1959 until the brigades demise in 1968.  It continued in use in the 1970s on belt buckles for white, ceremonial waist belts.

Edited 27 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

New to the forum but collect QA, VAD and FANY insignia, badges and patches. From studying the pictures of the two girls in their dark blue VAD uniforms I believe they are BRCS (British Red Cross Society) VADs. If you look closely you can see a red cross in their cap badge, and the pendant badge on their chest looks ot be the BRCS pin rather than the SJA one. Both the BRCS and the SJA provided girls as VADs. The uniform and insignia they wore depended upon where they receive their training and the unit they enlisted under. BRCS VAD ward dress was a light blue dress, with a white apron having a large red cross on the front. The SJA VAD ward dress was a gray dress with a plain white apron. Originally they wore a head covering like the nurse with the black covering, but this was soon changed ot the tied handkerchief style because it was felt too confusing between a VAD and a QA.

 

A comment on training - if a BRCS VAD took her training from the SJA but enlisted under the BRCS she might wear the SJA medal cross from her waist belt.

 

Terry

BRCS VAD Cap

BRCS VAD Ambulance Driver

BRCS Nurse with handkerchief head covering

SJA Nurses with pre-handkerchief head covering

Part of my VAD Collection

Part of my QA collection

Edited 2 January , 2021 by Guest

[FROGSMILE]

In the nurses uniforms yes, most definitely.  The girl with the dark arm band is from the Order of St John part.  There were three types of VAD nurse, BRC, OSJ, and non-aligned.  The girl in the blue uniform stood by an ambulance is a VAD Ambulance Driver from the OSJ.  Again you can see the distinctive OSJ arm band.

 

Edited 2 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE