Provost Marshal in Dublin Castle, Easter Rising 1916

[Sinabhfuil]

I'm looking for the name of the man who was Provost Marshal in Dublin Castle when James Connolly, Helena Molony, Elizabeth O'Farrell et al were brought in. 

As far as I can work out, it seems to be a Major Price, but I'm not certain.

If it was Major Price, can anyone tell me any more about him?

Or if it wasn't, anything about whoever was in the job?

Many thanks in advance…

[davidbohl]

The paper mentions a Major Moul(?) in March 1916

Dave

From the BNA

[headgardener]

1 hour ago, Sinabhfuil said:

I'm looking for the name of the man who was Provost Marshal in Dublin Castle when James Connolly, Helena Molony, Elizabeth O'Farrell et al were brought in. 

As far as I can work out, it seems to be a Major Price, but I'm not certain.

If it was Major Price, can anyone tell me any more about him?

Or if it wasn't, anything about whoever was in the job?

Many thanks in advance…

 

I think it was Major Ivor Price. He was the Intelligence Officer for Irish Command. I have a photo of him somewhere and some research. I’ll see what I can dig up.

[Sinabhfuil]

Thanks, Headgardener, sounds right. (I hope your crops are well.)

Thanks also davidbohl - the place seems to have been crawling with Provost Marshals in different places (at least, that's three now: Major Price, another in Richmond Barracks and this Major Moul).

[davidbohl]

The Larne Times in December offers another one in the hat, Major G. D'urban Rodwell

 

 

[headgardener]

Ah, yes, I said Ivor Price but seeing David's post (above) I now recall that it's Ivon Henry Price. My photo of him is part of a group of senior officers (Irish Command? Dublin Command?) outside Dublin Castle in 1918 I think. Unfortunately all of the larger stuff in my collection is in storage in a friend's attic so I don't have access to it atm I'm afraid. If you Google his name I'm sure plenty will come up, especially if you do a specific search of 'books'. He was a senior figure in Military intelligence until about 1919 when he became (I think) the Inspector General of the RIC, so he features a lot in the historiography of the period. I recall that he was from Dublin, but after independence he retired to England where he died in the 1930's. 

Edited 23 July , 2020 by headgardener

[corisande]

Click for my mini CV of Major I H Price - click

 

He is certainly not your Provost Marshal

 

I know nothing about Provo Marshal's, but I think we need an input from someone who does, to tell us if a Provost Marshall actually existed in Ireland or whether they were technically Assisant Provost Marshal in Dublin like Moul

 

[Sinabhfuil]

The references I've come across were specifically to Provost Marshal, and to two different ones, one in Dublin Castle and one in Richmond Barracks… maybe there were more? I'm fairly hazy about what a Provost Marshal is or does or is responsible for, though.

[Ivor Anderson]

They were most likely deputies or assistants in Ireland, but there were quite a few in post c.1919:

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1919/apr/30/provost-marshals

 

Edited 24 July , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[corisande]

4 hours ago, Ivor Anderson said:

They were most likely deputies or assistants in Ireland,

 

Yes, my reading of that is that there was not a Provost Marshal in Ireland but a Deputy and lots of Assistant PMs

 

Does @FROGSMILE know

[headgardener]

From the June 1916 Army List:

 

IRISH COMMAND

 

General Staff

 

Adminsitrative, Technical & Departmental Staff

Provost Marshal (graded as Asst Adjt-Gen) Lt Col HF Fraser DSO, 21st Lancers       date of appointment: 27 Apr 1916

[Sinabhfuil]

Hm. Yes, Col Fraser (spellled Frazer) comes up in some accounts but as based in Richmond Barracks. 

The particular lad I'm after glommed onto some money Elizabeth O'Farrell was carrying - £13 in gold given to her to mind & give to his mother by a Volunteer who'd been saving up for marriage, but was in lodgings so brought it out with him when going to fight; more money from Michael O'Hanrahan and his brother Harry.  

He also attached himself to James Connolly's watch, wallet with an unknown amount of cash, and a £1 note and 10/= Treasury note. When Connolly's widow went to General Maxwell and demanded this back, Maxwell wrote to her: "…Major Price, this Office, he has been instructed to deliver a watch and money to whoever calls with proper authority from you. Perhaps it would be well to show this letter."

(It wasn't that unusual for soldiers to be a bit light-fingered about taking "souvenirs" from the rebels; perhaps this is common practice among soldiers, I wouldn't know.)

I'm just curious about who the heck this officer could have been.

 

 

(Sorry, the "paste" wasn't working, but then put in "Michael O'Hanrahan and his brother Harry", which I'd tried to paste in, twice at the end. Can't seem to edit these paste-ins to get rid of them.)

Edited 24 July , 2020 by Sinabhfuil

[Ivor Anderson]

Plenty of detail on his MIC off Ancestry (inc. 'Assist. Provost Marshal'):

 

 

Edited 24 July , 2020 by Ivor Anderson

[corisande]

 

Presumably this is your reference to the Provost Marshal at Dublin Castle

 

 

[corisande]

There is a fairly full CV on Moul, done when his medals were sold - click for CV

 

I am fairly confident that he was the Assistant Provost Marshal at Dublin Castle at the time of the Easter Rising. And I think that he was the man in charge of Provosts at Dublin Castle, and that the post of "Provost Marshall " as such did not exist

[Sinabhfuil]

Hm, gets more complicated. 

Lowe seems an unlikely suspect - Elizabeth O'Farrell had a high regard for him, though who knows. 

Robert Brennan writes a little about Price in his witness statement to the Bureau of Military History http://www.militaryarchives.ie/collections/online-collections/bureau-of-military-history-1913-1921/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0779 Section 1.pdf#page=27 (Brennan was an amusing writer - look up Carlow in the statement… he was also the father of the New Yorker writer Maeve Brennan, whose short stories have been rediscovered and become a bit of a cult.) 

What are Provosts, by the way?

[Sinabhfuil]

For context, here's some of what Elizabeth O'Farrell writes. Anything in square brackets is myself.

Quote

 I awoke the next morning about 8:30 and was about to rise and dress when I discovered some of my clothes had been taken away, including my coat with the money in the pockets. I asked a nurse where was my clothes. She told me the Medical Officer [Captain Stanley RAMC] (whose name I don’t know but would recognise him) took (sic). I protested against my clothes being removed, I being left as a guest. After about 15 min or so the medical officer came up. He asked me quite a lot of questions including where I got the money. This I told him and he was quite alarmed at any Irish Volunteer possessing £13 without stealing it. I gave the young man’s explanation of the money and the medical officer said “going to be married indeed. He looted some safe”. He went away then and after some time my clothes came up but not the money, money (sic). When I had washed & dressed the medical officer and another soldier came up. I asked where was the money & he said the Povost Marshal had it. 

He asked me to come along with them. I inquired where he was taking me to & he said the Provost Marshall. They brought me downstairs & across the Castle yard. Whilst crossing the yard I heard the medical officer say to the other soldier “What did Provost Marshall say” and he replied “lock her up & keep her there for the day”. I understood then that they were going to make me a prisoner, altho’ Capt. Wheeler had left me as a guest and BG Lowe had given his word of honour that I should not be made a prisoner. They brought me into a building and opened a door & ushered me inside. The medical officer went away then & left me in charge of the other man. I asked if I was prisoner & he replied “very much a prisoner”. I protested and said I had BG Lowe’s word of honour that I should not be made a prisoner. He said “Oh don’t worry, you won’t be lonely. Your friend Dr. Lynn and Miss Malony [Molony] & all the rest of them will be here in a few minutes. They are only taking exercise”…

[Long section where she’s brought to Kilmainham, etc]

…There was a guard sitting in the room all the time. After dinner we were brought out to the Castle yard & lined up together with some men prisoners who had been brought out of some other part of the building between an armed guard. A tall man in khaki with black trimmings took charge of us there. I went up to him and said I had BG Lowe’s word of honour that I should not be made a prisoner and he said don’t be silly. I know for a fact you shot six policemen yesterday. I knew there was no use arguing with him so I took up my place on the line. 

After about 15 mins. we were marched off between the guard to Richmond Barracks. On arrival there we were handed over to two officers and to those I also protested but they did not take the slightest notice of me. So I informed them if I was imprisoned I would when released publish all over the world how BG Lowe kept his word of honour. After standing here for about 10 mins., the men prisoners were brought into the Barracks and we were told the women were going back to Kilmainham. Just then Father Columbas came out of one of the buildings the same priest I had been speaking to and who had came with me to Commandant Daly at the Four Courts on Saturday Eve., 29th April. I called him & told him I had been made a prisoner and he said he would go to BG Lowe. He went back to the officers and told them he knew “I had BG Lowe’s promise and that he was going to him immediately. 

{Skipped a bit]

While I was sampling it a terrible commotion was being raised outside the door, keys were rattled, the door pushed in and I called for in terrible haste. I went outside to behold humbly apologising, the medical officer who had searched my clothes, took my money & put (word missing) into Ship St. Barracks that morning. He begged my pardon for the mistake and all the rest of it. I was then brought downstairs to a room where Capt. Wheeler was waiting for (sic), having been sent by BG Lowe with a motor car to take me away. When Father Colombus reached him with my protest he also was very apologetic. He apologised again and vowed it was a mistake. He told me BG Lowe was very much annoyed that such a thing should have happened and that he was coming himself to the Castle to personally apologise to me. There was also a nurse from the Castle Hospital with them. Capt. Wheeler took the car down O’Connell St. to show us the sights and then on to Dublin Castle. We reached Dublin Castle about 6:15 p.m. I was brought upstairs and provided with some dinner while partaking of it. 

 BG Lowe arrived and assured me the fact of me being made a prisoner was all a mistake and wouldn’t I understand that a mistake would occur in those strenuous times and that he knew nothing about it or he would have seen to it immediately. 

BG Lowe then bade me good bye and was going off. Then I asked what about the money was taken from me this morning (sic). What money he said. There was over £16 taken out of my pocket this morning said I. Who took the money said he. That man said I pointing to the medical officer. Where is the money said BG Lowe. The Provost Marshall has it said the medical officer. Go get it immediately said he & restore it to this lady. After a short while the m.o. came back with the money and gave to me (sic). I thanked BG Lowe and he went away. The matron of the Castle Hospital accompanied me down to the Castle Gate in Dame St. & so ended my connection with Dublin Castle.

 

[FROGSMILE]

From reading your posts carefully it seems to me that there were Provost Marshal’s of various grades in the RIC and their reserves?  I say this because of the mention in post #5 of “the Force” and “county inspectors”, which can only be constabulary terms.  It would not be surprising given that the RIC was as much a gendarmerie, as it was a constabulary, with a quasi military dress, especially for the more senior officers, and the carriage of bayonets, carbines and revolvers making it unique as a British-Irish institution of the law. What the precise function of these men might have been within the police structure then prevailing I do not know.  Perhaps there was one for each police division.  They seem to have been closely associated with constabulary intelligence officers in some of internal security role.
 

From a specifically British Army perspective there would definitely have been a Provost Marshal for the Army Command headquartered in Dublin, he would have been a Lieutenant Colonel and responsible to the commander in Ireland for the discipline of soldiers across the entire command.  He also commanded the relatively small detachments of Military Mounted Police and Military Foot Police.  The man holding that position in 1916 seems to have been identified by Head Gardener in post #11.  That certainly fits with the standard command protocols that applied to all the British Army’s ‘Regional Commands’ and Ireland was no different in that regard.  He would have been supported by a Deputy, and some Assistant Provost Marshal’s (APMs - Majors) operating from each of the numbered ‘Districts’ within the command (which were number 11 (HQ Dublin) and number 12 (HQ Cork).  In operational theatres of war the same structure applied at Army (PM), Corps (DPM) and Divisional (APM) levels).  

Edited 26 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[davidbohl]

Here's Fraser in the Sunday Mirror 14th May 1916

From the BNA

 

[corisande]

LG announcement

 

The undermentioned temp, appts. are made: —Prov.-Marshal (graded for purposes of pay as an A.A.G.).—Lt.-Gol. H. F. Fraser,D.S.O., 21st Lrs. 27th Apr. 1916

 

and followed by

 

The undermentioned temp, appts. are made: A.A.G.—Lt.-Col. H. F. Fraser, D.S.O., 21stLrs., from a Prov.-Marshal, vice Maj. (temp.Lt.-Col.) F. W. Moffitt, D.S.O., Essex R.2nd July 1916

Edited 25 July , 2020 by corisande

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, corisande said:

LG announcement

 

The undermentioned temp, appts. are made: —Prov.-Marshal (graded for purposes of pay as an A.A.G.).—Lt.-Gol. H. F. Fraser,D.S.O., 21st Lrs. 27th Apr. 1916

 

and followed by

 

The undermentioned temp, appts. are made: A.A.G.—Lt.-Col. H. F. Fraser, D.S.O., 21stLrs., from a Prov.-Marshal, vice Maj. (temp.Lt.-Col.) F. W. Moffitt, D.S.O., Essex R.2nd July 1916

That all makes sense corisande, Provost Marshals and their subsidiary supporters further down the chain of command were, since the beginning of a standing army, simply staff officers appointed for the purpose and generally coming from a combatant arm such as cavalry, and infantry.  Under their direct command were troops specifically trained as field police, at one time called the Royal Staff Corps, but later more permanently established as Military Mounted Police and Military Foot Police.  Invariably small in size these latter were supported as necessary by temporarily appointed garrison police told off from regiments (cavalry), brigades (artillery) and battalions (infantry).  After a period of duty the Provost officers moved on and others took their place. As well as the discipline of troops, they were also responsible for Field Security.

Edited 25 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

Thanks , I am lost here with the subtleties as to what is happening

 

So does Fraser's appointment as Provost Marshal on 27 Apr 1916 (remember the Easter Rising started Apr 24) mean that this was a new appointment, as there is no predecessor mentioned in LG

 

If there were to have been a predecessor there would be the implication that he was sacked, or that the role was vacant

 

Does the announcement moving Fraser to AAG from 2 Jul mean he was no longer Provost Marshall from that date, and would there have been a successor

[corisande]

...and from an earlier thread ...

 

I see now what the OPs interest in this is, her grandfather was, Thomas MacDonagh link to Wikipedia article on him, one of the men shot following the Easter Rising

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, corisande said:

Thanks , I am lost here with the subtleties as to what is happening

 

So does Fraser's appointment as Provost Marshal on 27 Apr 1916 (remember the Easter Rising started Apr 24) mean that this was a new appointment, as there is no predecessor mentioned in LG

 

If there were to have been a predecessor there would be the implication that he was sacked, or that the role was vacant

 

Does the announcement moving Fraser to AAG from 2 Jul mean he was no longer Provost Marshall from that date, and would there have been a successor

I think it’s possible that the post of Provost Marshal was vacant, or for some reason dormant, but it would be extremely unusual for there not to be one as they commanded the military police (few though they were) and saw to discipline.  At a push I supposed that one of the HQs Adjutant General Staff Division might have covered the role, but it seems unlikely as Ireland had a relatively large garrison and the political undercurrent, even during quiet periods, would have made the policing of soldiers activities when out and about an important and sensitive issue.  If there was definitely no predecessor then I can only assume that the function was covered in a more low key way as described.

 

Lt Col Fraser seems to have moved on to become AAG, replacing an Essex Regiment Officer in that role.  I would have expected someone else to take his place as Provost Marshal unless the post was to be again vacant.

 

Something really important that I’d forgotten to mention is that another important role of a PM was to supervise any prisoners kept in military custody, as opposed to civil police custody.  He would have become the military interface with the RIC from a perspective of prisoners held by the army and the security of army garrisons.

Edited 25 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Sinabhfuil]

Thank you all very much, this clarifies things very much. Yes, I think the Provost Marshal in Dublin Castle with the dancing fingers must have been an RIC operative.

And yes, Corisande, I'm still working on a book about my grandparents and their circle, and characters like Elizabeth O'Farrell, James Connolly, Alec Wilson and many, many, many, many, many others are part of this.

I'm very grateful for all your help.