AC00 Posted 22 July , 2020 Share Posted 22 July , 2020 Just come into possession of a WW1 Feldmutze for my WW1 collection, Would anybody be able to advise as to the originallity of the cap and for which unit. A quick web search shows that the markings F.E.A.1 1916 relates to Flieger-Ersatz-Abteilung 1 Any information would be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 (edited) I am afraid I don't like it. The black band should have red piping to the top and bottom and the liner looks wrong to me. I think its a repro but thats my opinion from the photos shown. I have six and none have that type of liner. Lets see what others say. Edited 23 July , 2020 by trenchtrotter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 I am with TT but more photos would help. If this was off ebay then the majority on offer are sadly fakes the ageing is now part of the deceivers business. If it was from a reputable dealer I would be returning it. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 I do not like the stitching either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 The other red flag is this visible join in the piping. Should not be present. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 And the marking using the elaborate gothic font... Markings were in normal roman letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC00 Posted 23 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2020 Hi this is from Auction site , they has several other types on sale at the same time Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark holden Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 If it was a recent Auction in the North West of England a large percentage of the items were fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC00 Posted 23 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2020 Have been stung , me thinks ! Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 AC00 i fear so. You could contact them and ask for a refund. Its not good at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC00 Posted 23 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2020 I will contact them tomorrow and let you know the outcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 24 July , 2020 Share Posted 24 July , 2020 17 hours ago, AC00 said: I will contact them tomorrow and let you know the outcome If collecting Imperial German, can I recommend the Feldzug series to you? The 1914 volume is sold out/ out of print, but the rest of them can be had here: http://www.militarymodepublishing.com/ While they may seem superficially expensive, the remaining set of four is less than half the price of a real - or dodgy - feldmutze. It has lots of examples close up, which clearly show the differences between this and real ones. On 23/07/2020 at 12:45, trenchtrotter said: The other red flag is this visible join in the piping. Should not be present. Sorry. How should it be joined TT, as I can't imagine how it'd be continuous? Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 24 July , 2020 Share Posted 24 July , 2020 (edited) On 23/07/2020 at 12:45, trenchtrotter said: The other red flag is this visible join in the piping. Should not be present. Sorry. 3 hours ago, Grovetown said: How should it be joined TT, as I can't imagine how it'd be continuous? I took TT to mean a join visible from the front, instead of hidden at the back where it would be less obvious when worn, eg: Interesting to see the same style MW initials on a different example though... Edited 24 July , 2020 by Andrew Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 24 July , 2020 Share Posted 24 July , 2020 34 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said: I took TT to mean a join visible from the front, instead of hidden at the back where it would be less obvious when worn, eg: Interesting to see the same style MW initials on a different example though... Thanks. That one has a better lining, yet according to TT above, also lacks waffenfarbe around the black band meaning it's possibly dodgy too. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom K Posted 24 July , 2020 Share Posted 24 July , 2020 (edited) I think both examples are dodgy. As far as I could determine, the un-piped black band and red piping on the crown does not correspond to any WW1 German formation (I am happy to be corrected on this). The fact that the same MW appears in both is a huge red flag too. The coloured band is never sewn onto the body of the cap on originals. Both for solid colour and piped, it is let into the cap - the seaming is inside and stitching is not visible. As mentioned above - air mechanics generally wore caps with black bands with red piping. Flyers wore the caps of their original units or if enlisted directly into the air services, wore caps with a light grey band and piping (I've only ever seen one in the flesh and that was an officer's cap and was more than 30 years ago). The piping on both the dodgy hats is too thick and coarse and further, the piping join on all the original caps I have seen - even late war universal caps - is so fine as to be practically invisible - the ends should be butt stitched and you really have to look to find it. Edited 24 July , 2020 by Tom K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 25 July , 2020 Share Posted 25 July , 2020 (edited) Hi Grovetown. In reply to the q re the join then as the last poster said. Extremely well joined and hidden. And as for Andrews cap also imho a copy/ reproduction. From same source as posters I think. A big red flag for me is the stitching on the liner where it joins the base is the cap. Looks machined and totally opposite to originals. My opinion is based on experience, seeing lots of them, chats with dealers and collectors and I have six. My opinion of course. Others may disagree. And I agree re initials. Edited 25 July , 2020 by trenchtrotter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 25 July , 2020 Share Posted 25 July , 2020 13 hours ago, Tom K said: I think both examples are dodgy. As far as I could determine, the un-piped black band and red piping on the crown does not correspond to any WW1 German formation (I am happy to be corrected on this). The fact that the same MW appears in both is a huge red flag too. The coloured band is never sewn onto the body of the cap on originals. Both for solid colour and piped, it is let into the cap - the seaming is inside and stitching is not visible. As mentioned above - air mechanics generally wore caps with black bands with red piping. Flyers wore the caps of their original units or if enlisted directly into the air services, wore caps with a light grey band and piping (I've only ever seen one in the flesh and that was an officer's cap and was more than 30 years ago). The piping on both the dodgy hats is too thick and coarse and further, the piping join on all the original caps I have seen - even late war universal caps - is so fine as to be practically invisible - the ends should be butt stitched and you really have to look to find it. Good post. 13 hours ago, Tom K said: air mechanics generally wore caps with black bands with red piping. My understanding is that this was for engineers or technical types generally, of which air mechanics would be included. 2 hours ago, trenchtrotter said: Hi Grovetown. In reply to the w re the join then as the last poster said. Extremely well joined and hidden. And as for Andrews cap also imho a copy/ reproduction. From same source as posters I think. A big red flag for me is the stitching on the liner where it joins the base is the cap. Looks machines and totally opposite to originals. My opinion is based on experience, seeing lots of them, chats with dealers and collectors and I have six. My opinion of course. Others may disagree. And I agree re initials. Thanks - good info. Cheers, GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC00 Posted 25 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2020 Well contacted the auction house, in a nutshell. They completely put the blame at my door!! Will not go there again. Should have stuck to my MM collection Thanks to all for your support and advice Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bierast Posted 25 July , 2020 Share Posted 25 July , 2020 5 hours ago, Grovetown said: My understanding is that this was for engineers or technical types generally, of which air mechanics would be included. Yes - and artillery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 25 July , 2020 Share Posted 25 July , 2020 27 minutes ago, AC00 said: Well contacted the auction house, in a nutshell. They completely put the blame at my door!! Will not go there again. Should have stuck to my MM collection Thanks to all for your support and advice Allan Name them. They should not sell tat. How did they list it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom K Posted 25 July , 2020 Share Posted 25 July , 2020 If it was represented as original, they should stand behind their appraisal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OLD ROBIN HOOD Posted 26 July , 2020 Share Posted 26 July , 2020 Greetings from Sherwood Forest None of us like making a mistake but I doubt that any collector out there hasn't ever made one. I know that over 50 years I have made quite a few . Just put it down to experience . Don't let it put you off collecting. Old Robin Hood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC00 Posted 26 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 26 July , 2020 Thanks for the support the auction house mentioned the word "Type " was in the title. they know full well they are selling fake items and rely on the lack of knowledge of collectors !! Allan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depaor01 Posted 26 July , 2020 Share Posted 26 July , 2020 Shocking. Surely 'reproduction' would have been more accurate. Very sharp practice for a reputable auctioneer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom K Posted 26 July , 2020 Share Posted 26 July , 2020 I would surely question whether it would be appropriate to apply the word "reputable" to an auction house that, whether knowingly or unknowingly, sold a fake item but resorts to relying on a technicality of language to evade responsibility. As Old Robinhood says - Don't let it turn you off. I too have paid my fair share of "tuition" over the years - even when buying from reputable well established dealers - they don't know everything either. Learn from it. Buy books and references instead of "stuff" and keep an eye out for the next treasure. Even factoring in the odd bad purchase, overall it is a rewarding and interesting pass time. Tom K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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