Just got this RFC album from a clearance but do t know much about it

22 July , 2020

Gosh the above all makes for very interesting reading..

22 July , 2020

On 21/07/2020 at 18:52, arantxa said:

On some of the men in the front row there appear to be badges on the forearms of the jackets.

If we agree the man in the centre seat is the C.O, the man to his left, (no wings or observer badge, possibly ex-RFC), has one visible, while the office two to his right, (wings, possibly ex-RNAS), has them on both sleeves. It may be a trick of the light but the men at either end of the row also possibly have them. Are they a badge of rank, or do they indicate something else?

Cheers,

Peter

23 July , 2020

Quote - On some of the men in the front row there appear to be badges on the forearms of the jackets.

Hi Peter, from a recent post re Sidney Smith of 27 Squadron RAF

Imperial War Museum - From a description of an RAF Khaki Uniform Sleeve of a Captain WW1 & Interwar :- Above the top braid ring, a flying eagle, looking left, with above it a King's crown, both in gilded metal. Eagle and crown with one and two screw fittings respectively to reverse, with which they are secured to the sleeve with a single backing plate and three circular nuts.

Here is a picture of one of these badges from my collection although this particular example has been repaired . Steve

Steve

Edited 23 July , 2020 by hmsk212

23 July , 2020

2 hours ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi Peter, from a recent post re Sidney Smith of 27 Squadron RAF

Seems to be at least six threads that reference him, but none recent

More importantly - I take it it means the individual was a Captain and nothing else? Looking to see if it can help whittle down the candidates for the individuals in the pictures.

Cheers,

Peter

23 July , 2020

18 minutes ago, PRC said:

Looking to see if it can help whittle down the candidates for the individuals in the pictures.

There’s a Royal Marines Captain wearing RAF pilots wings sitting 3rd from L in the small group photo. That should certainly narrow the field.

23 July , 2020

And, with reference again to the small group photo, the apparent C.O. is a Major, he’s flanked by the RM Captain and an RAF Captain (Administrative or Engineering branch - hence no wing(s) ). The others in the front row are Lieutenants.

23 July , 2020

2 hours ago, PRC said:

Seems to be at least six threads that reference him, but none recent

More importantly - I take it it means the individual was a Captain and nothing else? Looking to see if it can help whittle down the candidates for the individuals in the pictures.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter,

The last post on Sidney Smith I mentioned was dated 7th July but unfortunately I am completely incompetent as far attaching links to threads are concerned. No, it doesn't mean that he was a Captain, it is just the example at the Imperial War Museum was from the uniform of a Captain.

Steve

23 July , 2020

On 22/07/2020 at 09:20, topgun1918 said:

Having widened my search a little, Waugh, is recorded as having dropped one 65-lb and three 100-lb bombs on a U-boat 10 miles south-west of Portland Bill on 23 September 1917 while flying White Biplane Seaplane 9848. Intriguingly, although the White was a two-seat machine, no observer is mentioned; this same machine was flown by Flt Sub-Lt R Jarman and Air Mechanic C S Laycock on 18 October 1917 when they dropped bombs on a U-boat 20 miles south-east of Portland Bill. Ronald Jarman received the DSC as per the London Gazette of 19 December 1917 (no citation, just named beneath the heading 'for services in action with enemy submarines'); Charles Stanley Laycock had received the DSM as per the London Gazette of 22 June 1917.

3 hours ago, headgardener said:

And, with reference again to the small group photo, the apparent C.O. is a Major, he’s flanked by the RM Captain and an RAF Captain (Administrative or Engineering branch - hence no wing(s) ). The others in the front row are Lieutenants.

I believe Ronald Jarman may well be this man.

Full Name: Jarman, Ronald

Date of Birth: 7 August 1898

Date of Death: 15 December 1972

Occupation: Anaesthetist

Ronald Jarman was born on 7 August 1898. At the commencement of the first world war, while still a schoolboy in the north of England and an active member of the Officers' Training Corps, he became attached to the Army Staff as a dispatch rider. Very soon, while still under age, he became attached to the Royal Naval Air Service, in which he trained as a bomber pilot. In 1917 he became a Flight Lieutenant and his duties included patrolling the Western approaches. On four occasions his plane was shot down into the sea, and there he had to wait patiently sitting on his plane up to his knees in water until he was rescued. Once he was not spotted until four days and nights had passed. Late in 1917 he received honourable mention in both British and French dispatches and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for sinking a German submarine lying in wait for a troopship carrying American soldiers to the Western Front. When the RNAS and Royal Flying Corps were amalgamated he became a Flight Lieutenant in the RAF and was then acting Flight Commander until the end of the war.

Jarman entered Guy's Hospital Medical School in 1920 and qualified MRCS LRCP in 1926. He held several resident appointments at Guy's. He served as assistant anaesthetist to the dental school for over two years. Soon after this he became anaesthetist to the Royal Marsden, Princess Beatrice, Gordon and the Woolwich War Memorial Hospitals.

He obtained the DA RCS in 1935 and the FFARCS in 1948. He became FRCS in 1964. He was awarded the John Snow Medal in 1969, this was the highest honour the Association of Anaesthetists of Great Britain and Ireland can award. He travelled widely to the United States and Canada and Australia and New Zealand lecturing on his specialty and often giving demonstrations of his own techniques. At the Royal Marsden Hospital and in private Jarman gave anaesthetics for A Lawrence Abel for over 15 years. These sessions were often long and a large number of major operations were performed.

Jarman died on the 15 December 1972 and was survived by his wife and two sons.

https://livesonline.rcseng.ac.uk/client/en_GB/lives/search/detailnonmodal/ent:$002f$002fSD_ASSET$002f0$002fSD_ASSET:378031/one?qu="rcs%3A+E005848"&rt=false|||IDENTIFIER|||Resource+Identifier

On his RNAS service record the last posting is shown as Calshot (Staff) from the 31st May 1917. Then a Flight Sub-Lieutenant, on the 31st December 1917 he was promoted Flight Lieutenant. On the 11th November 1917 he was involved in an attack on a submarine and it is believed it was most probably destroyed. Seaplane was No. 9850. He was awarded the DSC for this action. On the 18th November 1917 while in Seaplane 9848 with Air Mechanic Laycock spotted submarine which was bombed and believed damaged or sunk. On the same day in 9850 with Observer Sub.Lt. Coles(?) they claimed five direct hits on a submarine getting ready to attack a convoy of 24 ships.

A more detailed breakdown on the second page shows him posted to Portland from the 25th May 1917. There is then another posting in November 1917, (possibly ‘Wng Cd Higsworth’ – obscured by National Archive watermark) and then from the 31st March 1918 Portland is shown again.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9749409

The RAF service record for Ronald Jarman, born 7th August 1898, can be sourced here:-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8277269

(The Great War period starts on page 5). From August 8th 1918 he was with 16th Group at Portsmouth and would then move between various units, but no sign of a return to 241st Squadron.

This picture of him in later life is from the Royal College of Anaesthetists website and if there is a possible match for him in the first officer grouping then my best guess would be this one.

Image sourced https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/dr-ronald-jarman

If that is correct that would date the photograph to some point between the formation of the RAF and the 8th August 1918 when Ronald Jarman was posted elsewhere – however that would seem at odds with the state of the trees. Also that officer is not wearing a medal ribbon.

Cheers,

Peter

23 July , 2020

3 hours ago, PRC said:

The RAF service record for Ronald Jarman, born 7th August 1898, can be sourced here:-

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8277269

(The Great War period starts on page 5). From August 8th 1918 he was with 16th Group at Portsmouth and would then move between various units, but no sign of a return to 241st Squadron.

This picture of him in later life is from the Royal College of Anaesthetists website and if there is a possible match for him in the first officer grouping then my best guess would be this one.

Image sourced https://www.rcoa.ac.uk/dr-ronald-jarman

If that is correct that would date the photograph to some point between the formation of the RAF and the 8th August 1918 when Ronald Jarman was posted elsewhere – however that would seem at odds with the state of the trees. Also that officer is not wearing a medal ribbon.

Just checked, and my references tell me that 241 Sqn was only formed in August 1918. The 1st group photo is clearly labelled “241st Squadron”, and given the absence of leaves on the trees and relative absence of medal ribbons, I’m guessing that the photo is autumn / winter 1918/19 (maybe a photo commemorating the formation of the sqn, or perhaps the Armistice?), so we’re looking for officers who were with the squadron during that period (Aug 1918 up to about Jan 1919)

Edited 23 July , 2020 by headgardener

23 July , 2020

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

Just checked, and my references tell me that 241 Sqn was only formed in August 1918. The 1st group photo is clearly labelled “241st Squadron”, and given the absence of leaves on the trees and relative absence of medal ribbons, I’m guessing that the photo is autumn / winter 1918/19 (maybe a photo commemorating the formation of the sqn, or perhaps the Armistice?), so we’re looking for officers who were with the squadron during that period (Aug 1918 up to about Jan 1919)

Agree with your line of thought and have posted previously about them not being formed until August 1918. I certainly wouldn't die in a ditch over the identification of the officer as Ronald Jarman, hence my qualifications of a very tentative identification.

But, (there is always a but, as a bigger issue there is no indication so far of who wrote the captions and when, and whether the pictures were in the album in any kind of timeline order. Thus we know from Post 2 that at least one of the pictures pre-dates the formation of 241st Squadron.

On 21/07/2020 at 18:52, arantxa said:

Like you I think the officer group may well be armistice or post armistice, but while it's most likely to be a picture of the officers with the squadron at that time, it could also be a reunion.

Hopefully Arantxa will be able to share details, if any, of who compiled the album, what order the pictures are in, and whether there is other helpful information - are there any other captions on additional photographs for example, and whether they all appear to be in the same handwriting.

Cheers,

Peter

23 July , 2020

Hi im away for a few days but will take some pics of the photos I didn’t put up

tbanks

Matt

24 July , 2020

I have a name but not a face to go with it.....

Lt Francis Dudley John SILWOOD (RNAS & RAF) was a member of the original Establishment of 241 Sqn, and served with them until 1919, so he’s probably going to be one of the 8 pilots in the photo, but he won’t be the CO or the RM Capt which helps narrow the field further.

He was awarded the AFC in Jan 1919, so IF we can identify him the the presence or absence of a medal ribbon can help date the group photo.

His RAF Service papers are here:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8226330

I have a couple more links, will post them here later.....

24 July , 2020

I think the jigsaw is coming together. Graeme added some useful information on the Wight 'converted' seaplane, e.g. that Waugh's u-boat bombing on 23.09.1917 was followed by Jarman/Laycock's bombing of a u-boat on 18.10.1917. Others have identified this aircraft as sinking on 26.11.1917.

Peter/PRC and Headgardener have identified some of Silwood's actions.

Attempting a numerically chronological list of the aircraft it'd read something as follows:

Wight seaplane (9841). A macabre salvage job, that had killed an R. Larimer and an A. Larmier on 07.09.1916. Used to good effect by Jarman. On 25.06.1918 he and Lt G.F.F. Reid dropped 4 bombs on a U-boat 5022N 0157W.
Wight seaplane (9846). A modified version, with enlarged wing tip floats. Crashed near Chesil Bank on 18.10.1917. (F/Sub-Lt J.R. Ross and Lt F.D.J.Silwood).
Wight seaplane (9848). Waugh dropped 65-lb and 3 x 100-lb bombs on a U-boat, 10 miles West of Portland Bill, 23.09.1917. F/Sub-Lt R. Jarman and AM C.S. Laycock dropped 2 x 100-lb bombs on a U-boat, 20 miles South-East of Portland Bill, 18.10.1917. Damaged its undercarriage and sank on 26.11.1917.
Wight seaplane (9850). Jarman and Observer Sub-Lt K.G. Coles dropped 4 x 100-lb bombs on a U-boat, 4958N 0322W on 11.11.1917. (This is Jarman's DSC action). Capt N. Harrison and Cpl Argent drop 3 x 100-lb and 1 x 65-lb bombs on U-boat, 5033N 0155W. Wreckage apparently seen by a trawler, on 26.05.1918.
Wight seaplane (9851). Crashed in bad weather, 23.01.1918, outside Portland Harbour but Silwood survived, as did the aircraft.
Wight seaplane (9855). Crashed on 20.04.1918, written off the following month.
Wight seaplane (9856). Dropped 3 x 100-lb bombs on U-boat, 25.03.1918, all of which failed to explode. (Ens F. Ives US Navy). Dropped 4 x 100-lb bombs on U-boat, 25.04.1918. (Silwood and Lt E.A. Sawyer).
Fairey Campania seaplane (N2363). Silwood and Sawyer drop 2 x 230-lb bombs on U-boat 5000N 0253W, on 16.05.1918. Oil and wreckage observed. (Alas if they're bombing the wreck of a ship, or jettisoned cargo etc, then that's what'd emerge).

24 July , 2020

Just to add to the above, Observer Kenneth George Coles had a traditional naval/military affliction not obtained from engagement with the enemy, but his RNAS service record also refers to a number of anti-submarine operations.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C9751111

24 July , 2020

9 minutes ago, Airshipped said:

Wight seaplane (9848). Waugh dropped 65-lb and 3 x 100-lb bombs on a U-boat, 10 miles West of Portland Bill, 23.09.1917