temptage Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 I was looking at CWGC archive records for Rocquigny-Equancourt for something totally different when I noticed an entry for an 'Unknown British Airman' who died on 19/08/1918, plot 10.E.30 As usual I got distracted from my original research and had a look to see if he had subsequently identified and given a named headstone. Nothing. I searched for all who served in the Air Force who died on that date, and on looking through the resulting list, there is only ONE name that is unaccounted for and named on the Arras Flying Memorial. All others are buried. The one name it came up with was Thomas Douglas Hazen. On the GRRF it states a 'British' airman, but although he was Canadian, he was in the Royal Air Force flying a British plane. On searching for his name online, there is a mention that he crashed either near Ligny, or east of Bapaume, which is only a few miles away. At the time Rocquigny-Equancourt Cemetery, Bapaume and Ligny were all behind the German front line. Looking at the dates of burial, he will have been buried by the Germans (another grave next to his was buried by the Germans, written by hand at the bottom of the GRRF) His ICRC card, shows he was registered as 'killed', so already dead, when they recovered his body, not having died as a POW in their hands. Dates tally, even down to when his mother received a telegram saying that he son was missing on the 19th August 1918. I asked an initial question here which has had a few replies with interesting details. I have also been in touch with Chris Harley who has given me a few pointers. Am I presuming that the Germans, unlike the GRRF forms, didnt provide coordinates of where bodies were found? I found his Casualty card on rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk which also coroborates his crash site. I hope this is enough for you to look further into this casualty. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew pugh Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 Hi Tony Put a case together and present it to the authorities for identification. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 22 July , 2020 Share Posted 22 July , 2020 He was discharged from the CEF so he could enlist in the RFC. I doubt there would be any kit suggesting he was Canadian. https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=454160 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptage Posted 22 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2020 4 hours ago, laughton said: He was discharged from the CEF so he could enlist in the RFC. I doubt there would be any kit suggesting he was Canadian. https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/personnel-records/Pages/item.aspx?IdNumber=454160 What is your take on it? Does it seem likely that that unknown grave could be Hazen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 22 July , 2020 Share Posted 22 July , 2020 I am at the farm on my cell so not easy to check details. The ICRC file looks positive; https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5151492/3/2/ Did you check for a COG-BR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 July , 2020 Share Posted 22 July , 2020 Here is his International red Cross card-which confirms he was killed. CWGC conctration reports combined with squadron records held at Kew suugest to me,at least, that may be a way forward-but I note a gismo has come in saying Richard has responded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 22 July , 2020 Share Posted 22 July , 2020 (edited) Based on Frank Cosens next to himn no COG-BR shown. Will search others! Sometimes they are just not published. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/243569/FRANK COSENS/ Agreed, you need the air files. Edited 22 July , 2020 by laughton Spell check changed name! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptage Posted 22 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2020 40 minutes ago, laughton said: Based on Frank Cosens next to himn no COG-BR shown. Will search others! Sometimes they are just not published. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/243569/FRANK COSENS/ Agreed, you need the air files. But would his details be on a COG-BR if his body had been recovered and buried by the Germans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 22 July , 2020 Share Posted 22 July , 2020 The GRRF says grave 29 was buried (there?) by the Germans on 6 August 1918. As the Canadian CCS did not start buying there until September 1918 and the ICRC says he was buried by the Germans, you are most likely correct. Check a bunch of the others since 21 March 1918 to see who buried them. Unfortunately no Canadians in the March-September period, as we have their records. Still on phone using new CWGC database - a challenge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 22 July , 2020 Share Posted 22 July , 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, laughton said: The GRRF says grave 29 was buried (there?) by the Germans on 6 August 1918. As the Canadian CCS did not start buying there until September 1918 and the ICRC says he was buried by the Germans, you are most likely correct. Check a bunch of the others since 21 March 1918 to see who buried them. Unfortunately no Canadians in the March-September period, as we have their records. Still on phone using new CWGC database - a challenge! Alas, burial date does not tally- Other records (below) have his date of death as 19th August 1918-ergo, its not him.The disparity between 6th and 19th cannot lightly be explained away. The GRU form showing 19th August is promising-anything with 6th August is a No,No He has 2 AIR files at TNA which I will endeavour to see after Covid abates (plus 2 x cataract ops and 2 x knee ops!!). The guts of the matter are the entries (a fair few) on the excellent airhistory.org site. I enclose below a couple of the entries- from 56 Squadron Occurrence Books-went down in flat spin) and "Death accepted" Unless there isan administrative mistake in the German records of burial as taken over by GRU and subsequently CWGC, then the Unknown cannot be Hazen. Name: Thomas Douglas Hazen. Air Ministry: Air Member for Personnel and predecessors: Airmen's Records. 152001 - 152190 (Described at item level). Name: Thomas Douglas Hazen. Held by: The National Archives, Kew - Air Ministry and Royal Air Force records Date: 1918 - 1928 Reference: AIR 79/1371/152150 Subjects: Air Force | Armed Forces (General Administration) Name Hazen, Thomas Douglas. Date of Birth: 13 March 1896. Air Ministry: Department of the Master-General of Personnel: Officers' Service Records. Hayward, Douglas - Hazzlewood, Norman. Name Hazen, Thomas Douglas. Date of Birth: 13 March 1896. Held by: The National Archives, Kew - Air Ministry and Royal Air Force records Date: 1918 - 1919 Reference: AIR 76/218/26 Subjects: Air Force | Armed Forces (General Administration) Hazen Lt TD 56Sq 19.08.18 Died [E1348 SE5a] Last seen E of Bapaume going down in flat spin during attack by large formation of EA. Lt TD Hazen+ CasBook AIR 1/969 p98 6691 180819 HAZEN Hazen Lt TD 56Sq France 19.08.18 Death accepted [E1348 SE5a] Seen to go down in a flat spin during combat E of Bapaume CasCard 273554 Edited 22 July , 2020 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 6 August 1918 is the date of death for grave 29, the German airman called Rehwald. Grave 30 is our unknown British airman, who died on 19 August 1918 and could very well be Hazen. Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 On 23/07/2020 at 04:49, AOK4 said: 6 August 1918 is the date of death for grave 29, the German airman called Rehwald. Grave 30 is our unknown British airman, who died on 19 August 1918 and could very well be Hazen. Jan Accepted- I had got lost on this thread. Burials behind the german line late inthe war- the Hundred Days especially-are often problematic, as the Germans were in retreat and hard pressed. I don't think this one will be cracked to the satisfaction of CWGC and its referees. Pity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptage Posted 23 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2020 Rehwald died on 16th August, not the 6th. Accepted- I had got lost on this thread. Burials behind the german line late inthe war- the Hundred Days especially-are often problematic, as the Germans were in retreat and hard pressed. I don't think this one will be cracked to the satisfaction of CWGC and its referees. Pity. But going back to me original post, Hazen is the ONLY man serving in the Air Force to have died that day, who is not named and buried anywhere. He is the only Airman from that day to be named on the Arras Flying Memorial, or any Memorial in France or Belgium What are the chances of a 'Believed to be' headstone nowadays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptage Posted 23 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2020 Alas, burial date does not tally- Other records (below) have his date of death as 19th August 1918-ergo, its not him.The disparity between 6th and 19th cannot lightly be explained away. The GRU form showing 19th August is promising-anything with 6th August is a No,No He has 2 AIR files at TNA which I will endeavour to see after Covid abates (plus 2 x cataract ops and 2 x knee ops!!). The guts of the matter are the entries (a fair few) on the excellent airhistory.org site. I enclose below a couple of the entries- from 56 Squadron Occurrence Books-went down in flat spin) and "Death accepted" Unless there isan administrative mistake in the German records of burial as taken over by GRU and subsequently CWGC, then the Unknown cannot be Hazen. Name: Thomas Douglas Hazen. Air Ministry: Air Member for Personnel and predecessors: Airmen's Records. 152001 - 152190 (Described at item level). Name: Thomas Douglas Hazen. Held by: The National Archives, Kew - Air Ministry and Royal Air Force records Date: 1918 - 1928 Reference: AIR 79/1371/152150 Subjects: Air Force | Armed Forces (General Administration) Name Hazen, Thomas Douglas. Date of Birth: 13 March 1896. Air Ministry: Department of the Master-General of Personnel: Officers' Service Records. Hayward, Douglas - Hazzlewood, Norman. Name Hazen, Thomas Douglas. Date of Birth: 13 March 1896. Held by: The National Archives, Kew - Air Ministry and Royal Air Force records Date: 1918 - 1919 Reference: AIR 76/218/26 Subjects: Air Force | Armed Forces (General Administration) Hazen Lt TD 56Sq 19.08.18 Died [E1348 SE5a] Last seen E of Bapaume going down in flat spin during attack by large formation of EA. Lt TD Hazen+ CasBook AIR 1/969 p98 6691 180819 HAZEN Hazen Lt TD 56Sq France 19.08.18 Death accepted [E1348 SE5a] Seen to go down in a flat spin during combat E of Bapaume CasCard 273554 I have downloaded AIR 76/218/26 from the TNA. AIR-76-218-26.pdf AIR 79/1371/152150 is available to download through Find My Past and Ancestry, but I dont have a subscription to either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptage Posted 23 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2020 I have sorted through the casualties at the Cemetery and left all of those who were buried between 23/03/1918 and the early part of September 1918. Post 230318.csv The Special Memorial graves are 'Believed to be buried', so Im guessing the bodies must have been recovered by the Germans, dog tags removed, and buried within the Cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 I will try and catch up - just looking at all the GRRF documents now: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 1 hour ago, temptage said: But going back to me original post, Hazen is the ONLY man serving in the Air Force to have died that day, who is not named and buried anywhere. He is the only Airman from that day to be named on the Arras Flying Memorial. What are the chances of a 'Believed to be' headstone nowadays? The CWGC does not want to do those! But I think you have the correct man anyway, so don't take that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 1 hour ago, temptage said: I have downloaded AIR 76/218/26 from the TNA. AIR-76-218-26.pdf 4.29 MB · 1 download AIR 79/1371/152150 is available to download through Find My Past and Ancestry, but I dont have a subscription to either. Had a look at that one, but it adds nothing to answer any burial place. Send me an e mail if you want a copy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 1 hour ago, temptage said: I have sorted through the casualties at the Cemetery and left all of those who were buried between 23/03/1918 and the early part of September 1918. Post 230318.csv 8.37 kB · 1 download The Special Memorial graves are 'Believed to be buried', so Im guessing the bodies must have been recovered by the Germans, dog tags removed, and buried within the Cemetery. Are they still doing special memorials? I go along fully with what you say- There may be an extra glimmer of hope. The problem with "Unknown" airmen is often there wasnt' a lot left to play around with for ID-I have a local casualty in a "Believed to be grave"- Dogfight at 15,000 feet, petrol tank exploded and straight down-so not a lot left. But Hazen may be different- there was enough left to ID him-almost certainly because his plane did not catch fire and his wallet was retrieved. There is an outside chance that the Foreign Office papers for 1918-1919 may have something official-Despite the Armistice being only a ceasefire, there were plenty of Brits. crawling over Germany. Thus, an outside edge of further info. His casualty card with ICRC suggests some activity in Feb.1919. so that is a target date-ICRC cards are useful because the dates on them usually correspond to records at the other end of correspondence. But that must wait until TNA is fully on the go again (Oh...and me as well!!) Yes, the 19th August date is good - but how far is the Unknown from Bapaume???? Could a plane in a flat spin have crashed where this Unknown was recovered?. One aspect that does puzzle me- OK,late on in war is probably the reason. Many ICRC cards for airmen have details of the plane,as the casualty info. is coming from German air investigators-who,like their British equivalents (eg Crash cards at Hendon) seem more concerned with the fate of the aircraft than the fate of the personnel. But this seems to be missing for Hazen. It would be good to know from someone such as Siege Gunner whether there is any possibility that the German air invesigation section records have survived-OK, unlikely due to RAF toasting during WW2. But there is still a chance..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughton Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 (edited) I finally found another man buried by the Germans in August 1918, which may lead to details on others: Harry Hodge #30034 Wiltshire Regiment 19/08/1918 ICRC record ICRC details It appears they started burying the Germans there on 23 March 1918 and there are a few Commonwealth but nothing on ICRC yet, such as H. E. Blake #G/20657. Here is a good one, Harry Ottey #268964 on 24 April 1918, he has lots of files: ICRC record ICRC details PA 27008 - he was at Etricourt ICRC details PA 32901 - on the list @fetubi might like to know that there is also an R. G. Ottey RFC that is NKG with a German record J. H. Laidler #201014 ICRC PA 29811, picked up off the battlefield by a German sanitation company he is on the same list as George Johnson #5585 of the Hood Battalion (ICRC record) so this is clearly as list for this cemetery!! Etheridge and Blake are also there and are on the same GRRF 2042800, which may lead to some of the others missing James Milne #22644 is on that list and is named on the Ploegsteert Memorial in Belgium - will have to check on that but Fred Dickerson #38142 is in Delville Wood? Edited 23 July , 2020 by laughton added Dickerson the odd one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 Just a reminder that Hazen went down near Bapaume on 19th August 1918- Buried by the Germans but with no known location. However, Second Bapaume started on 21st August and it is quite possible that Hazen was almost immediately an "Unknown" on the new British side of the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptage Posted 23 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 23 July , 2020 Just a reminder that Hazen went down near Bapaume on 19th August 1918- Buried by the Germans but with no known location. However, Second Bapaume started on 21st August and it is quite possible that Hazen was almost immediately an "Unknown" on the new British side of the line. Yes but remember there is an ICRC card filled in by the Germans stating he was 'killed' on 19/08/1918. Plus even though Bapaume was behind the British lines on or around 23rd August, Rocquigny Equancourt was still in German hands until very early September, as can be seen in the list I uploaded earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 23 July , 2020 Share Posted 23 July , 2020 37 minutes ago, temptage said: Yes but remember there is an ICRC card filled in by the Germans stating he was 'killed' on 19/08/1918. Plus even though Bapaume was behind the British lines on or around 23rd August, Rocquigny Equancourt was still in German hands until very early September, as can be seen in the list I uploaded earlier. Very much so- But I suggested this as a possible cause for German records of death and burial but lack of full records of where. Just a thought. The excellent documentary that pops up now and again, 1918 Aces Falling, with its take on Mick Mannock shows that good contemporaneous records from RFC/RAF colleagues in the air-from the histories,etc in AIR1 show that a plane going down can cover quite a distance, thus making our job of ID just that much harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 24 July , 2020 Share Posted 24 July , 2020 I see no "Ottey" on your link Richard. I've tried it several times! Though I do find the Red Cross material somewhat impenetrable... any thoughts? Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temptage Posted 25 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 25 July , 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, fetubi said: I see no "Ottey" on your link Richard. I've tried it several times! Though I do find the Red Cross material somewhat impenetrable... any thoughts? Trevor He's there. You just have to use logic in your search Edited 25 July , 2020 by temptage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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