stuart rowles Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 (edited) Frederick Sidney Rowles was born on Saturday, 4th June 1887 at No. 6, Gloucester Street, Lambeth, London the eldest child of Richard & Mary Ann Rowles (née Hawkes). He enlisted on 17th October 1916 and gave his occupation as Chimney Sweep Contractor. He served in the Royal Garrison Artillery, Gunner, No. 174773, 54th Section, Anti-Aircraft Associated No.’s: 706927, 166884, 3878, R.F.A. Associated No.’s: 166886 Royal Horse & Field Artillery. This photo was supplied by his grandson but the cap badge does not tally. It is as clear as I can make it I'm afraid. Can anyone identify what the badge is and also what is the badge attached to his breast pocket? Edited 21 July , 2020 by stuart rowles typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Michelle Young Posted 21 July , 2020 Admin Share Posted 21 July , 2020 Hertfordshire Regiment? I can just about make out some voiding on the badge. Might be a temperance medal hanging from the breast pocket. Michelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headgardener Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 (edited) It's an Army Veterinary Corps cap badge, and a fob hanging from his watch chain (the chain being tucked into his breast pocket). EDIT : that's a lot of different RA numbers, corresponding to all 3 branches of the RA. Some numbers suggest that he was TF, others suggest that he was a regular enlistment. Are you certain the numbers are correct? They look like they belong to more than one person imho. Edited 21 July , 2020 by headgardener Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 MIC is 174773 RGA, no other numbers or units on it. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1262/images/30850_A001350-02209?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=4835296&backurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancestry.co.uk%2F Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 Is this the whole photo? If not, could you please show the rest as it may help research. And I think I agree with headgardener on this, RAVC. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 (edited) A good spot there of a blurred badge. His 1905 pattern SD cap and simplified emergency SD jacket suggest a period 1914-15, whilst still in Britain. Edited 21 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart rowles Posted 21 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2020 This is the full picture. I am still trying to remember why I added the other numbers and where I got them. There are pension papers for him and service papers. Will take another look. I am now wondering if this picture goes with this man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 (edited) ....... same watch fob .....how unusual. Is the bloke on the left (Military Prison Staff Corps with KSA medal ribbon) related in some way? Edited 21 July , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 (edited) They do look like brothers. The cap badge at left might be [edit] Military Provost Staff Corps*, or perhaps Norfolk Yeomanry, which was similar. Someone looking on a computer screen should be able to determine which it is. * title changed 1906. Edited 21 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar Bear Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: They do look like brothers. The cap badge at left might be Military Prisons Staff, or perhaps Norfolk Yeomanry, which was similar. Someone looking on a computer screen should be able to determine which it is. Very, very similar badges but of the two choices I just prefer Norfolk Yeomanry due to this photo problematically not appearing to have a spike/ bump on the top centre of the crown and the Norfolk Yeomanry badge has slightly less of one (from images I have seen). But I could be convinced differently. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 32 minutes ago, TullochArd said: ....... same watch fob .....how unusual. Is the bloke on the left (Military Prison Staff Corps with KSA medal ribbon) related in some way? The medal ribbon is for the Queen's South Africa Medal - it being impossible to be awarded the King's South Africa Medal on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: They do look like brothers. The cap badge at left might be Military Prisons Staff, or perhaps Norfolk Yeomanry, which was similar. Someone looking on a computer screen should be able to determine which it is. The Norfolk Yeomanry cap badge is much larger than the one in the photo and if he was MPSC he would hold NCO rank. I think he is more likely to be RDC. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said: The Norfolk Yeomanry cap badge is much larger than the one in the photo and if he was MPSC he would hold NCO rank. I think he is more likely to be RDC. Pete. Yes, those are excellent points Pete and on the ball. He’s very old and with the medal ribbon suggests an old soldier likely to be part of the National Reserve/RDC. I think you’ve cracked it. I didn’t think that one through very well. I enclose images showing the larger badge of the Norfolk Yeomanry for both ORs and officers. Edited 21 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuart rowles Posted 21 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2020 Thanks everyone. I have checked again for the associated numbers I listed. Associated No.’s: 706927, 166884, 3878, R.F.A. Associated No.’s: 166886 Royal Horse & Field Artillery. They all appear on various sheets in his service papers and pension papers, and some have a lione pencilled through them. I thought it best to list them on his research. I am now of the opinion that the picture is NOT of Frederick Sidney Rowles as I was told. This is not the first time someone, with good intention, has supplied a picture of Granddad but which turns out to probably on the mother's side, and notg a ROWLES. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes, those are excellent points Pete and on the ball. He’s very old and with the medal ribbon suggests an old soldier likely to be part of the National Reserve/RDC. I think you’ve cracked it. I didn’t think that one through very well. I enclose images showing the larger badge of the Norfolk Yeomanry for both ORs and officers. Great images there Frogsmile, thanks for showing them. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 Just now, CorporalPunishment said: Great images there Frogsmile, thanks for showing them. Pete. It’s great when they illustrate a point, especially for those less familiar. Here’s one more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorporalPunishment Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: It’s great when they illustrate a point, especially for those less familiar. Here’s one more. It's certainly an impressive badge. Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Andrew Upton said: The medal ribbon is for the Queen's South Africa Medal - it being impossible to be awarded the King's South Africa Medal on its own. ..... of course's it's QSA. Schoolboy error on my part. The KSA ribbon being a simple "tricolour" style and most distinctive on b&w photos. Edited 21 July , 2020 by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 2 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said: The Norfolk Yeomanry cap badge is much larger than the one in the photo and if he was MPSC he would hold NCO rank. I think he is more likely to be RDC. Pete. Spot on .......... MPSC would hold NCO rank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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