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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Edward Hinton Clifton - Gunner (RGA/163200)


bod1611

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Hi,

 

I'm a bit of a newbie in researching relatives in WW1 so it would be great to get some assistance.

My great-grandmother married Edward Hinton Clifton in January 1919 in Bristol.  As far as i can tell, he played no further part in the war.

What i'm trying to work out is how they met - my great grandmother was from Jarrow on Tyneside and Edward was born in Bristol so they lived on opposite sides of the country and she was too young to be in the war effort abroad.  In WW1, Edward was a member of the Royal Garrison Artillery (regimental number 163200) and he does have a British War Medal and Victory Medal from France (i think).  There is a company number of WO 329 on the official archives record but very little else.

Is it possible to trace which company/battalion he was part of and if so, trace whereabouts he was during the war?

I know there was a RGA stationed at Tynemouth which is just across the Tyne from Jarrow so there might be a clue there but else i haven't got a clue where to start.  Any help would be greatly appreciated, even if it's just to say that it's not possible.

 

Thanks!

Screenshot 2020-07-20 at 17.29.50.png

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1 hour ago, bod1611 said:

company number of WO 329

Hi and welcome

The WO 329 is just a National Archives reference. It is for Medal Index Cards, rolls and silver war/wound badges. Another example WO 95 is War Diaries.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C528

Hopefully someone will come along to answer your other questions

 

regards

Jon

Edited by jonbem
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Looking at a number of the service numbers round and about his number, there is a commonality in  that all started their service at No 3 RGA Depot in Plymouth having been mobilised in mid 1917 and went straightaway, also at Plymouth to 458 Siege Battery, almost certainly for training.  Thereafter though they went to the four winds and there isn't any way of knowing where your man went except to say it was almost certainly a siege battery.

 

No consolation perhaps to know that RGA men without records are among the most difficult to tie down!  (You may not be aware that some 60% of Great War service records were lost to bombing in WW2)

 

Max

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Thanks both.

I did start a bit of research and the bombing certainly doesn't help.  I noticed that the date on the service medal and award rolls is stamped Jan 1920 so i'm guessing this is why all of the entrants have 'Base Dtls' rather than anything more helpful as they wouldn't be located elsewhere after the war?  There is another Edward H Clifton who was in the Engineers - i haven't looked at his records but would the personnel number have changed if he has moved from the Engineers to RGA before i go looking?  He was the son of a solicitor and an art student in his early 20's (1911 census) which is why i was a bit surprised he didn't buy into being an officer.

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Could a person earn multiple British War Medals and Victory Medals when serving multiple units?  The Edward H Clifton serving in the Engineers in 1914-5 seems to have been awarded these already

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Also, i've checked on forces-war-records website and they claim the record year for Edward Clifton (163200) is 1914.  Not sure if i believe what this website is telling me, does anyone have experience of using the information there?  Could it just be that the medal roll card was 1914-1920?  If he doesn't have a star medal then i'd presume he hadn't served in 1914-15?

 

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A man would indeed change numbers if he transferred from one regiment to another and if he served overseas with both then they both appear on one medal card so the RE man is a different soldier.

 

The Forces War Records "1914" relates to the way the men are catalogued.  The next man on the RGA roll, 163202, that FWR also have 1914 for, signed up on 30 Nov 1915 and was mobilised on 8 Jun 1917 to 3 RGA Depot  - which I suspect is the same time frame as the others in the sample I looked at and the same route as your man.

 

This: https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/collections is the FWR records collections list which shows that the 1914-19 roll is simply another way of showing the medal cards which you have already.  FWR do not have the detailed service records.

 

He did not serve overseas in 1914 as you rightly say.

 

I have looked for an absent voters' list for Bristol for 1918 or 1919 without success (these show the unit a man is in if he is serving).  These though are not all on line and are held by the British Library, you might like to try that route.

 

Frankly, without his record and in the absence of anything other than medal records, his service cannot be determined - an only too typical result particularly with RGA men!

 

Max

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3 minutes ago, MaxD said:

A man would indeed change numbers if he transferred from one regiment to another and if he served overseas with both then they both appear on one medal card so the RE man is a different soldier.

 

The Forces War Records "1914" relates to the way the men are catalogued.  The next man on the RGA roll, 163202, that FWR also have 1914 for, signed up on 30 Nov 1915 and was mobilised on 8 Jun 1917 to 3 RGA Depot  - which I suspect is the same time frame as the others in the sample I looked at and the same route as your man.

 

This: https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/collections is the FWR records collections list which shows that the 1914-19 roll is simply another way of showing the medal cards which you have already.  FWR do not have the detailed service records.

 

He did not serve overseas in 1914 as you rightly say.

 

I have looked for an absent voters' list for Bristol for 1918 or 1919 without success (these show the unit a man is in if he is serving).  These though are not all on line and are held by the British Library, you might like to try that route.

 

Frankly, without his record and in the absence of anything other than medal records, his service cannot be determined - an only too typical result particularly with RGA men!

 

Max

 

Thanks Max, that's really helpful.  

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Hi,

 

Just another couple of quick questions around gunners in the RGA:

  • What was the typical time spent in training (in this case in Plymouth) before being deployed in France?
  • Once in the theatre of war, how long were gunners typically there for before being sent home?
  • If they were sent home, could they be called up again (i.e. it was just a brief respite)?

I'm trying to estimate where he would have been for the remainder of 1917 and the whole of 1918.  He was married in Bristol in January 1919 so was he likely to have served his time by then?  This would give me a good indication of when he met his wife - either before or after he was called up in June 1917.

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Rough answers

 

3-4 months in the case of some of the other men near to him on the medal roll.  I've made what I think is the reasonable assumption that he, as with others near to him, was mobilised in May/Jun 1917 and would therefore be ready to go overseas about October, he was in France certainly by the end of the year and he would have stayed there until time for demobilisation - but see below .

Piece on demobilisation on LLT here:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/demobilisation-and-discharge/
There isn't really a circumstance that would see him sent home and called up again.  He may though have been able to get leave in January 1919  to get married in which case he would have had to return until his time for demobilisation came round. 

Do you have his marriage certificate?  That would say whether he was still serving.

 

Max

 

 

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There was previously a thread that traced an RGA gunner who had started in France & Flanders, but ended up with the Tyneside Defences that right through almost to the end of the war were quite substantial.  In that case the man concerned had been wounded and subsequently medically boarded as fit for home service only.  It seems that at the start of the war the fixed coastal defence fortifications were manned mostly by older men and those who had not elected for overseas service.  Following conscription this changed and more ex-wounded and others of lower medical grade became preeminent.  It seems feasible that something similar has occurred with the subject of this thread and provided the opportunity for him to meet his future wife.  The only other thing that I can think of is to consider whether his wife might have been a member of the women’s auxiliary army corps and met him in a camp or canteen.  There were 50,000 women in the QMAAC by 1918.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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48 minutes ago, MaxD said:

Rough answers

 

3-4 months in the case of some of the other men near to him on the medal roll.  I've made what I think is the reasonable assumption that he, as with others near to him, was mobilised in May/Jun 1917 and would therefore be ready to go overseas about October, he was in France certainly by the end of the year and he would have stayed there until time for demobilisation - but see below .

Piece on demobilisation on LLT here:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/demobilisation-and-discharge/
There isn't really a circumstance that would see him sent home and called up again.  He may though have been able to get leave in January 1919  to get married in which case he would have had to return until his time for demobilisation came round. 

Do you have his marriage certificate?  That would say whether he was still serving.

 

Max

 

 

 

I've just managed to find their marriage certificate and it does state his occupation as a Gunner in the RGA.  With the demobilisation starting late 1918/early 1919 am i safe to assume that this would have been leave (due to occupation on his marriage certificate and the fact it was very early into the process of demobilisation) rather than his return home as part of that activity? 

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In the absence of evidence you really have to take a view as m'learned friends would put it it. 

 

While Frogsmile's  example shows that other explanations are possible, my money is on him serving in France, being given leave to marry and then returning to France to await demob as his marriage was so early in the year.  He was only 30 years of age when the war ended, more in the active service overseas bracket than the coast defences UK I'd suggest and too young and with too short a service to be a really early demobilisation.   .  

 

Do you know what took Marguerite Burton from Jarrow to Bristol, more normal for marriages to take place where the bride comes from?

 

Max

 

 

 

 

Edited by MaxD
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I think i'm on the same page as you in relation to timescales - many thanks, your insight has really helped firm that up.

In terms of why Marguerite was in Bristol, i'm still trying to figure that one out.  I only know that she was in Newcastle in 1911, Gateshead in June 1916 for the birth of her daughter and then in January 1919 for the marriage in Bristol.  Not sure how she managed to meet Edward, there might be a link between her and the landlords of the Lansdown Hotel in Bristol who originated in Newcastle.  One theory is that she gave birth to her illegitimate daughter and was sent away to work.  Her daughter was brought up by Marguerite's aunt so that is likely but what i don't know is whether she had already met Edward either in Bristol or elsewhere.  If Edward met Marguerite after the birth then that would have to be July 1916 - May/June 1917.  Another theory is that because he was an art student on the 1911 census (aged 22), artists tended to travel around and Northumberland was a popular place and hence he could have met her before 1916.  Not sure i'll get to the bottom of that, have contacted Bristol libraries and archives for the electoral rolls and street dictionaries from 1914 onwards just to see if i can get any clues but not really hopeful of anything.

As it happens, she has the name Margaret on the birth certificate of her daughter and Marguerite on the marriage certificate - seems like she re-invented herself somewhere along the way!

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She might have gone into service, as many working class women did, and those from up North even back then often travelled South to get a job in a big house or hotel that perhaps paid better than locally.  I agree with Max’s comment that he was quite young to go on coastal defences ordinarily, but to be clear what I am postulating is entirely predicated on him having been wounded.  In the absence of a service record we aren’t going to know that, but it might be worth checking newspaper casualty lists.  I’m not sure how quickly men were demobilised after the Armistice, or whether his marriage would have given him a head start.  It was more usually a guaranteed offer of employment at home that was likely to get a man released more quickly.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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