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RussT

Expert Opinion Needed on this Star

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RussT

Can our medal experts please pass their view/opinion on the authenticity of the inscription on the Star please:

 

It relates to an on-going thread here:

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Russ

28029.JPG

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tullybrone
58 Div Mule

Naming looks wrong to me.
 

Have you tried the British Medal Forum? Plenty of experts there.

 

58 DM.

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RNCVR

It does not appear to have been erased & then renamed to me.  I think its a later issue.

 

Thanks,

Bryan

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58 Div Mule

Apologies,

 

I’ve realised that my first post here is not helpful as you’ll want to know why the naming looks wrong.
 

Assuming this is a 1914 star (?).
 

I don’t think the font is correct and I’m surprised to see naming over four lines. Also you might expect to find a Battalion number and a shortened version of naming for the regiment on a 1914 star i.e. 2/ S Staff. R.


However it may have been renamed by an individual entitled to the star so don’t be disheartened.

 

Source, handling a few and Howard Williamson’s fantastic reference Vol 1 to 3.

 

58 DM.

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58 Div Mule
4 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

It does not appear to have been erased & then renamed to me.  I think its a later issue.


Hadn’t thought of that. Could be.
 

58 DM.

 

 

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RNCVR

Hi mule,

 

Star does not appear to have been erased & renamed, no obvious file marks.

 

Agree naming on 4 lines is very unusual, that & style of naming was why I thought a later issue.

 

Thanks,

Bryan

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RNCVR

It is also very difficult to discern if naming is impressed or engraved.

 

I dont have a copy but Howard Williamson's book should assist.

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johntanner

Something very wrong here. 28029 Edward Richard Thomas Russell 12th (Labour) Bn. S Staffs enlisted 24 June 1916, to France July 1916,  and transferred to Class P Army reserve 3 April 1917. Served overseas. Discharged 1 July 1917. Myopia astigmatisms rendering him unfit for service overseas.

 

Pension record on Ancestry.

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RNCVR

Then star is a self award & likely privately engraved.

 

South Stafford Reg't should not be spelled out, but abbreviated.  S. Staff. R.

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tullybrone
Posted (edited)

Ancestry MIC here - no mention of 1914 Star entitlement.

8963C8AE-D5C2-425D-9087-BF03BDDF910C.jpeg

Edited by tullybrone

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headgardener
Posted (edited)

Even curiouser..... his only medals (the BW&VM pair) were returned to the Army Medal Office as being ‘undelivered ‘and would have been scrapped by the AMO (see the reference to KR1743) 

Edited by headgardener

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chaz

looks like a self issue probably of a later issue,"tailors copy", agreed regiment name normally shortened.

have a look on the BMF, copies are covered and include various items like rounded corners and dimples.

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headgardener

I’ve just had a look at the eBay link - it’s hard to tell for sure whether the star is impressed or engraved, either way it’s not named in an authentic style and he clearly wasn’t entitled to it. It looks to me like a relatively modern engraving. The BW&VM look correctly named, although it’s hard to tell from a photo. The gilt on the rim of the VM looks about right.

Strange.

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RNCVR
Posted (edited)

I too looked at the BWM & VM in the original listing photos & they are correctly impressed,  nothing wrong with their naming. They also appear mint, possibly never worn.

 

Perhaps Russell did receive his pair eventually(?).

Edited by RNCVR
.

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chaz

to be honest, its probably why it realised the value it did, a correct trio would probably have a 1 in front ie £190.

I bought a trio from a local auction house without seeing and touching first, think I paid around £100 for the trio. when I collected I didnt check until I got home and found the star as the attached picture. on complaining, their reply was that their "expert" says it was right and just been heavily polished.

buck.JPG

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RNCVR

Wow - what a mess Chaz!  Were you able to return the trio?

 

I also looked at the '14 star in the original listing, its hard to tell from that single photo(its not a close up) if the star is a repro or not, but from that distance it looked good to me.  A possibility he might have gotten hold of an unnamed original star & had it named up, but thst is just speculation of course.

 

 

 

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headgardener
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

I too looked at the BWM & VM in the original listing photos & they are correctly impressed,  nothing wrong with their naming. They also appear mint, possibly never worn.

 

Perhaps Russell did receive his pair eventually(?).

 

Agreed. I suspect that someone has fairly recently added the star. Maybe £90 is about right for a pair plus a renamed 14 star? I’m not really up on prices now, I stopped buying years ago.

Edited by headgardener

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RNCVR

Uncertain if original poster purchased the Trio or not. 

 

Am thinking the person who bought the trio likely thought the star was good.

90 pounds seems about right price to me, but like headgardener I too have ceased buying due to ridiculous prices now.

 

Been a good discussion tho....

 

Best to all...Bryan

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chaz

RNCVR

I thought about returning and even asked on the BMF, but as he was a local soldier , I decided to keep, as mentioned the trio to survivng would be around £75, a trio to DOW maybe £150 or if a decent action maybe £180, a trio and plaque £300. of course there are vagaries to this, an ASC KIA may only make £120 on the other hand to a 1st July 16 a trio can go as far as £1000 if an officer or decorated  NCO to a good regiment. so me paying £100 to a R.E trio who was killed in an enemy air raid in Dunkirk 1917, with a duff star, who knows, I may get the original turn up.

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58 Div Mule

Chaz,

 

That’s an absolute disgrace. Not doubt their ‘expert‘ will be hiding behind ‘let the buyer beware’ or whatever the Latin version is.

 

Pity trading standards doesn’t apply!

 

58 DM.

 

 

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RNCVR

Thanks Chaz.  I would not trust any auction house or talk show "expert" under any conditions!

Most of the have not a clue about medals & would not know a renamed or erased medal if one hit them on the head - another reason I have ceased collecting!

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headgardener
1 hour ago, RNCVR said:

I too looked at the BWM & VM in the original listing photos & they are correctly impressed,  nothing wrong with their naming. They also appear mint, possibly never worn.

 

Perhaps Russell did receive his pair eventually(?).

 

Just thinking..... I’ve heard of ‘returned’ medals turning up for sale and now I’m wondering what exactly the medal roll says about this particular pair? It should show the “Retd KR 1743” (or whatever), but I wonder whether it might show them being reissued at a later date without that having been recorded on the MIC

Not very important in the grand scheme of things, but I wonder if anyone with appropriate subscription could find out....? I would just like to point out that I am merely ‘thinking aloud’ and am not  proposing that anyone act in contravention Of forum rules,.....

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johntanner

I think the roll entry in two different hands suggests reissue but interpreting these isn’t my forte.

10A79C30-A7C7-4CF1-A88F-C2C50100E535.png

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chaz

thinking..

could they be a late issue or one claimed by family later?

I think ive seen on the BMF where family have claimed recently, as long as they have proof of next of kin, then they could, but even then , they wouldnt be issuing a star without checking the records. If, and a big IF , he did join early and was invalided out, then rejoined. he may be entitled to a star, possibly he enlisted under an alias or an incorrect spelling so a duplicate MIC may be there, they are known to exist, but the reissue office may not be aware , so he bought himself one.

a long trek, but either contact the Regimental museum/archives, may have to pay for an archivists time or plough through the MIC's for alternate spellings or the service records to see if anything exits with a note on rejoining or renumbering.

 

if they were sent back for "breaking up" presumably they were destroyed but if reissued they could have been reissued with newer ones, I know of silver dealers that bought BWM's for melting down for their silver content, some of which "sat on them", presumably their crystal balls were clearer than others.

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