Cockjock Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 (edited) I read with interest, some time ago, the discussions on sporran cantles and wondered if anyone could throw some light on the attached picture. The device is that of Edinburgh but is it a military unit's [RVs,VBs] or a Civic one like Edinburgh Cleansing Corporation! Your input would be appreciated. Ignore the tassels as I think these have just been put on for decoration. Edited 19 July , 2020 by Cockjock Missed a bit out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 (edited) I’m fairly positive from the construction method and the design that it is not a British military cantle. It looks civilian and, as you suggested, with some association to Edinburgh. Edited 19 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 but the lord in vain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Cockjock said: I read with interest, some time ago, the discussions on sporran cantles and wondered if anyone could throw some light on the attached picture. The device is that of Edinburgh but is it a military unit's [RVs,VBs] or a Civic one like Edinburgh Cleansing Corporation! Your input would be appreciated. Ignore the tassels as I think these have just been put on for decoration. It's the motto of the KOSB as well as that of the city of Edinburgh. However, I don't recall seeing that particular cantle before. It's not the most recent one that was worn by the pipers of the Edinburgh City Police/Lothian & Borders Police and I don't believe it's a previous patterned one worn by them either......nor that of the pipers of the Edinburgh Special Constabulary. Other possibilities for 'official' pipe bands from Edinburgh over the decades would include the Edinburgh Transport Department Pipe Band/Edinburgh Corporation Transport Pipe Band, the Edinburgh Postal Workers Pipe Band (unlikely as they used a different badge), the Fire Brigade Pipe Band and the Royal Company of Archers Pipe Band (but I have photos of them over a period of years and the sporran cantle is different). 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron, RAF also had a pipe band for many years. (the Royal Company of Archers Pipe Band was pretty much the Edinburgh Postal Workers Pipe Band....but wearing a different uniform) Very nice find no matter who/what band it belonged to! Edited 19 July , 2020 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 2 hours ago, Cockjock said: ...Ignore the tassels as I think these have just been put on for decoration. Those type of tassels might be correct, as they are the style commonly found on levee sporrans, eg: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said: It's the motto of the KOSB as well as that of the city of Edinburgh. However, I don't recall seeing that particular cantle before. It's not the most recent one that was worn by the pipers of the Edinburgh City Police/Lothian & Borders Police and I don't believe it's a previous patterned one worn by them either......nor that of the pipers of the Edinburgh Special Constabulary. Other possibilities for 'official' pipe bands from Edinburgh over the decades would include the Edinburgh Transport Department Pipe Band/Edinburgh Corporation Transport Pipe Band, the Edinburgh Postal Workers Pipe Band (unlikely as they used a different badge) and the Royal Company of Archers Pipe Band (but I have photos of them over a period of years and the sporran cantle is different). 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron, RAF also had a pipe band for many years. (the Royal Company of Archers Pipe Band was pretty much the Edinburgh Postal Workers Pipe Band....but wearing a different uniform) Very nice find no matter who/what band it belonged to! Is there any relevance that you can see to the colours of the decorative cords beneath the cantle? I ask because perhaps by coincidence the colours are very similar to those of the Royal Logistics Corps as reflected by its lanyard and tactical recognition sign. I hope that it doesn’t turn out there’s some connection, as it would show how far the quality of military ceremonial accoutrements has descended, but one never knows with ‘Army Reserve’ units (as they’re now titled), at a time when so much uniform is purchased by contract from China (hopefully recent events might lead to the end of that, but I’m not holding my breath). NB. It would help a little to see the whole of the sporran rather than just the cantle. Edited 19 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Is there any relevance that you can see to the colours of the decorative cords beneath the cantle? I ask because perhaps by coincidence the colours are very similar to those of the Royal Logistics Corps. I hope that it doesn’t turn out there’s some connection as it would show how far the quality of military ceremonial accoutrements have descended, but one never knows with ‘Army Reserve’ units (as they’re now titled), at a time when so much uniform is purchased by contract from China (hopefully recent events might lead to the end of that but I’m not holding my breath). The original poster said to ignore the tassles.......but you could well be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 Just now, Ron Abbott said: The original poster said to ignore the tassles.......but you could well be right. Looking at the 79th’s old sporran that Andrew’s just posted it seems that the blue and gold colouration was not uncommon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockjock Posted 19 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 19 July , 2020 (edited) Thank you for the comments. I might try to find an organization in Edinburgh / Berwick to see what they say. I will keep you posted if I find anything. Thanks again. CJ Incidentally that's is the only picture I have of it. Edited 19 July , 2020 by Cockjock Missed a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 19 July , 2020 Share Posted 19 July , 2020 3 hours ago, RNCVR said: but the lord in vain If not the Lord, it is in vain ('Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it' from Psalm 127, according to Wiki) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 20 July , 2020 Share Posted 20 July , 2020 A similar sporran cantle badge can be viewed here - https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=290&lot_uid=242874 If the identification is correct, then a piper's sporran cantle of the City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers........which could mean that the sporrans continued to be worn by pipers of the Queen's Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Brigade and even the 4th / 5th Royal Scots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockjock Posted 20 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2020 Ron Thank you for this information. I think it nails it! I'll do some further checking on the other units you mentioned and let you know what I find out. CJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 July , 2020 Share Posted 20 July , 2020 3 hours ago, Ron Abbott said: A similar sporran cantle badge can be viewed here - https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=290&lot_uid=242874 If the identification is correct, then a piper's sporran cantle of the City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers........which could mean that the sporrans continued to be worn by pipers of the Queen's Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Brigade and even the 4th / 5th Royal Scots. Good spot Ron. I wonder if that precise castle and motto design is one used only by that regiment or also a civic device also used by the city of Edinburgh as a whole. It was often the case with militia and rifle volunteers that they used civic devices on their insignia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockjock Posted 20 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 20 July , 2020 Hi All I think the solution is that it is the Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers Pipers Cantle as mentioned in the Catalogue. It is so similar to that of the Royal Scots [Lothian Regt] in shape and design of the mount, which could have been designed by the same person. As regards being worn by the QER, I think not as somewhere I have/seen their cantle which has the QER badge thereon. Also when redes 4 & 5 RS they retained the QER as a sub-title so think they would be loathe to change their cantle. Another thing to check! Many thanks indeed , to all party's, for the help. If I find anything more I'll shall pass it on. SS CockJock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 20 July , 2020 Share Posted 20 July , 2020 12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Good spot Ron. I wonder if that precise castle and motto design is one used only by that regiment or also a civic device also used by the city of Edinburgh as a whole. It was often the case with militia and rifle volunteers that they used civic devices on their insignia. The City of Edinburgh Police pipers and drummers certainly did, with the city's coat of arms on their sporran cantles for many years as well as on their cross belts/baldricks and as a cap badge (it had previously been on the police helmet badge). But they used the full coat of arms and not this version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 July , 2020 Share Posted 20 July , 2020 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Ron Abbott said: The City of Edinburgh Police pipers and drummers certainly did, with the city's coat of arms on their sporran cantles for many years as well as on their cross belts/baldricks and as a cap badge (it had previously been on the police helmet badge). But they used the full coat of arms and not this version. I thought that might be the case, but it’s the exact pattern that counts as you know. I just wondered if there was any likelihood at all that it was a common pattern and used by other organisations. There are similar cases where, e.g. County Constabularies had the exact same collar insignia as a militia, or rifle volunteer/VB, unit. Edited 20 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockjock Posted 21 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 21 July , 2020 Hi Both The initial query to me was from a piper friend in America. I sent him the answer shown and he was highly delighted. I have been making some enquiries re your sporran cantle. I approached two sources. Collectors of Scottish Militaria on FB, and The Great War Forum who had a short series on sporrans some time ago. The latter came up trumps [I you’ll pardon the expression]. Your cantle would appear to be that of the Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers. There were three Highand Coys in 1st ERV Later the Highland Coys were disbanded as their kilts were to be withdrawn; but a new Highland unit was formed as the 9th [Highland] Battn R Scots. Whether this continued the use of your cantle I don’t know. Can’t find any pics but there is a book on EBay of the Dandy Ninth. https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=290&lot_uid=242874 Highlight any of the below lines then with the Control key down click the line. On releasing the Control key the sheet should appear. • 1st City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Corps • 2nd City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Corps • 3rd City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Corps • 1st Queen's Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Brigade • 4th (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Battalion, Royal Scots • 5th (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Battalion, Royal Scots • 4th/5th (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Battalion, Royal Scots • 4th/5th Battalion, Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment) (52nd Searchlight Regiment) Regards John He has given permission for me to send you another cantle [already verified] that is more in your domain. I'll send this tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 21 July , 2020 Share Posted 21 July , 2020 1 hour ago, Cockjock said: Hi Both The initial query to me was from a piper friend in America. I sent him the answer shown and he was highly delighted. I have been making some enquiries re your sporran cantle. I approached two sources. Collectors of Scottish Militaria on FB, and The Great War Forum who had a short series on sporrans some time ago. The latter came up trumps [I you’ll pardon the expression]. Your cantle would appear to be that of the Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers. There were three Highand Coys in 1st ERV Later the Highland Coys were disbanded as their kilts were to be withdrawn; but a new Highland unit was formed as the 9th [Highland] Battn R Scots. Whether this continued the use of your cantle I don’t know. Can’t find any pics but there is a book on EBay of the Dandy Ninth.https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=290&lot_uid=242874 Highlight any of the below lines then with the Control key down click the line. On releasing the Control key the sheet should appear. • 1st City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Corps • 2nd City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Corps • 3rd City of Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Corps • 1st Queen's Edinburgh Rifle Volunteer Brigade • 4th (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Battalion, Royal Scots • 5th (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Battalion, Royal Scots • 4th/5th (Queen's Edinburgh Rifles) Battalion, Royal Scots • 4th/5th Battalion, Royal Scots (The Royal Regiment) (52nd Searchlight Regiment) Regards John He has given permission for me to send you another cantle [already verified] that is more in your domain. I'll send this tomorrow If that's what you sent your friend, you appear to have forgotten to inform him that it's specifically said to have been a pipers sporran cantle. And I have no doubt that it was given the unit concerned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockjock Posted 22 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2020 Hi find attached details of the cantle that That is more in your timeline. It's all the information to hand. Presumably all the units in the Bde wore their own regimental tartans. My comment is, why would they make enough sporrans to kit a Bde out in wartime, or is this yet again a small issue for a pipe band? The materials used are all basic ones. The photo only shows a private, presumably not a piper. enjoy! CJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockjock Posted 22 July , 2020 Author Share Posted 22 July , 2020 I did upload a Word file but can't see it now. The content is as below:- WW1 military sporran to the 9th Reserve Brigade, the only one of three brigades of Scottish Command to wear the kilt. The Training Reserve in this form existed for only a brief period between 1916/17. Like the current Royal Regiment of Scotland, the uniform of the 9th Reserve Brigade was a mixture of the units within. Its badge was the Royal Arms of the General Service Corps: 38th TR battalion, 11th (Reserve) Bn, the Black Watch 39th TR battalion, 10th (Reserve) Bn, the Seaforth Highlanders 40th TR battalion, 8th (Reserve) Bn, the Cameron Highlanders 41st TR battalion, 13th (Reserve) Bn, the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders 42nd TR battalion, 11th (Reserve) Bn, the Gordon Highlanders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockjock Posted 24 August , 2020 Author Share Posted 24 August , 2020 On 20/07/2020 at 22:10, Cockjock said: Hi All I think the solution is that it is the Edinburgh Rifle Volunteers Pipers Cantle as mentioned in the Catalogue. It is so similar to that of the Royal Scots [Lothian Regt] in shape and design of the mount, which could have been designed by the same person. As regards being worn by the QER, I think not as somewhere I have/seen their cantle which has the QER badge thereon. Also when redes 4 & 5 RS they retained the QER as a sub-title so think they would be loathe to change their cantle. Another thing to check! Many thanks indeed , to all party's, for the help. If I find anything more I'll shall pass it on. SS CockJock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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