Why Was a Relative Awarded these Medals?

[abowell97]

Having recently come across a lot of a great grandfather's old letters and documents, a letter from the Government of India Army Department has him listed to receive both a British War Medal and a Victory Medal (the letter being dated 1925), though I can't quite understand why - as I've no records he was in the armed forces. The letter only has his name, address and the specific medal boxes ticked.

 

From 1910 - 1917, I've a document starting he worked for the East India Railway Locomotive Department as a millwright, not in the armed forces.

 

From November 1918 - March 1920, he was apparently an 'Erecting Engineer' in Mesopotamia with the 'E & M Directorate'. The letter states he left to return to India (where he lived) due to completion of agreement. 

After that, he went to work for the Chrome Leather Co. for several years, so I'm not sure where the reason for the above medals came from. I have no record he served in the armed forces in the First World War, were civilians entitled to war medal?

 

Any insight would be appreciated.

[wandererpaul]

welcome.
 

It would help to discuss this further with some more information; a name (in full), a date of birth (if possible) and a place of birth (if possible).

 

Then those more knowledgeable can assist you in many ways.

[abowell97]

1 hour ago, wandererpaul said:

It would help to discuss this further with some more information; a name (in full), a date of birth (if possible) and a place of birth (if possible).

Ah, can't believe I'd forgotten to include basic info!

 

This is regarding Edward Ernest Bowell, b. 8/3/1893 in Madras, India.

 

I believe he had a military position in the Second World War (was the rank of Captain in 1945), however never left his position as Foreman at the Madras Docks, so not in a combat-facing role. It's the First World War medals I can't quite understand.

[headgardener]

What details are impressed on the rim of each medal? What details are written on the boxes they came in?

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, abowell97 said:

From 1910 - 1917, I've a document starting he worked for the East India Railway Locomotive Department as a millwright, not in the armed forces.

Would be interesting to know what document - possibly see it if you can post it please.

As an example / possible sort of explanation for interest is that for Police Officers in the UK they were often released for Military Service and yet their Police Service record [Descriptive Register] for their pension does not indicate a break in Police Service even they did go off and wear a military uniform.

Might the EIRLD perhaps operate in the same way?

 

34 minutes ago, headgardener said:

What details are impressed on the rim of each medal? What details are written on the boxes they came in?

Got to say this would be most help if such could be supplied too - but as medals themselves are not mentioned I rather suspect they may not be available, only letters it might seem

 

Not checked it in detail / further myself but there is a MIC / Discharge card with BWM, VM & SWB list reference at the NA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1419725

Edward Bowell R Warwickshre Regt  23639  1916-17

Any further relevance to the OP's enquiry???

:-) M

 

 

[abowell97]

53 minutes ago, headgardener said:

What details are impressed on the rim of each medal? What details are written on the boxes they came in?

Thanks for your responses.

No medals, the only trace that he was intended to receive them was this document from 1925;

 

9 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Would be interesting to know what document - possibly see it if you can post it please.

As an example / possible sort of explanation for interest is that for Police Officers in the UK they were often released for Military Service and yet their Police Service record [Descriptive Register] for their pension does not indicate a break in Police Service even they did go off and wear a military uniform.

Might the EIRLD perhaps operate in the same way?

 

Certainly, here's his document leaving the job as a Millwright - though on second glance it could be from either 1910 or 1916, it's a bit smudged.

 

And his document stating his return to India from a job as an Erecting Engineer.

[tootrock]

The MIC for Edward Bowell R Warwickshre Regt  23639  states that he enlisted on 10 November 1916, but the above document states that he worked on the East Indian Railway until March 1917. I think these are two different men.

Martin

[Matlock1418]

44 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

Looks like there is a handy  Regr. No. in bottom left corner

10814/W

Now let's see where that might lead us

:-) M

Edited 18 July , 2020 by Matlock1418

[Old Owl]

The final document shows his number as 'WD 15131' which one assumes means 'War Department 15131'? and his Trade/rank? as 'Erecting Engineer'. Also the document is signed by a Lt Col of the Royal Engineers who presumably were in charge or associated with the 'E & M Directorate' (Engineering and Mechanical Directorate?)

 

Unfortunately this may be why he does not show up under the usual records on Ancestry?

 

Robert

[Matlock1418]

49 minutes ago, abowell97 said:

here's his document leaving the job as a Millwright - though on second glance it could be from either 1910 or 1916, it's a bit smudged.

Think it is probably from 1916 as it says and is asterixed as having served 5 years as an Indentured Apprentice.

:-) M

2 minutes ago, Old Owl said:

The final document shows his number as 'WD 15131' which one assumes means 'War Department 15131'? and his Trade/rank? as 'Erecting Engineer'. Also the document is signed by a Lt Col of the Royal Engineers who presumably were in charge or associated with the 'E & M Directorate' (Engineering and Mechanical Directorate?)

Hadn't yet got to that document but those are useful observations

:-) M

[headgardener]

The 1st document indicates that the medals were issued by the Government of India, so he probably won’t show on the British Army Medal Office MIC’s. My best guess isn’t that he served in the Indian Army in some capacity, so you may need to check the India Office Collection at the British Library as they typically have service papers and other documents relating to the British Indian Army.

[Old Owl]

4 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Think it is probably from 1916 as it says and is asterixed as having served 5 years as an Indentured Apprentice.

:-) M

Hadn't yet got to that document but those are useful observations

:-) M

 

These may hold the key to why he was awarded the BWM and VM, but as all this appears to have taken part in India then the answers may not be quite so easy to access, unless of course some other member has inside knowledge of how their systems worked.

 

His service in Mesopotamia with the railways--presumably erecting bridges or repairing damage to railways in a war zone may have triggered his entitlement? even though he was to all intents and purposes working in a civilian capacity--all a bit confusing really.

 

Robert

[abowell97]

8 hours ago, headgardener said:

The 1st document indicates that the medals were issued by the Government of India, so he probably won’t show on the British Army Medal Office MIC’s. My best guess isn’t that he served in the Indian Army in some capacity, so you may need to check the India Office Collection at the British Library as they typically have service papers and other documents relating to the British Indian Army.

I wondered this, but being in the British Indian Army wouldn't entitle him to the British War Medal, as India wasn't a theatre of war (other great grandfather was in the Motor Machine Gun Corps in India from 1915-1919 and wasn't entitled to it either). Mesopotamia would've been (I assume) but his letter  from the E and M Directorate states he only started that job in November 1918, so wouldn't have been at time of war...

 

8 hours ago, Old Owl said:

His service in Mesopotamia with the railways--presumably erecting bridges or repairing damage to railways in a war zone may have triggered his entitlement? even though he was to all intents and purposes working in a civilian capacity--all a bit confusing really.

It is a bit perplexing, what with no genuine military service, unless he did something between 1917-1918 that there aren't records of. 

 

I found another letter dated May 1919 from someone who is implied to have been his boss, which had a 'King George's Own Sappers and Miners' emblem on it, and signed by a captain in the Royal Engineers ("o/c Workdshops, Electrical Mechanical Sector, Royal Engineers") and includes a passage that states EE Bowell was 'foreman of the erecting shed', though I'm not sure how this quite fits in.

 

Thanks for all your comments today, great to gain opinions from people with a fair bit more insight in these things - and I'll certainly give the British Library a look when I can regarding any potential records.

[rflory]

 There is an Ernest Edward Powell who was received an Emergency Commission as a 2nd Lieutenant, Indian Army on 1 April 1943.  He was appointed Acting Lieutenant on 1 July 1943 and War Substantive Lieutenant on 1 October 1943.  His is listed under "Defence of India Corps" "Officers Temporarily Released from Army Service" and shown as "Emergency Commission - Docks."

[abowell97]

5 hours ago, rflory said:

 There is an Ernest Edward Powell who was received an Emergency Commission as a 2nd Lieutenant, Indian Army on 1 April 1943.  He was appointed Acting Lieutenant on 1 July 1943 and War Substantive Lieutenant on 1 October 1943.  His is listed under "Defence of India Corps" "Officers Temporarily Released from Army Service" and shown as "Emergency Commission - Docks."

That's him. General Foreman of the Madras Docks during WWII - reached the rank of Captain whilst working the docks by 1945. Where did you find that military record, if you don't mind me asking?

[Ron Clifton]

Hello all

 

I strongly suspect that it is his service in Mesopotamia which qualified him for the BWM and VM. He probably came under the category of those "subject to the Army Act as an officer" whilst there, even if he wasn't given a temporary commission at the time.

 

Incidentally, "E & M" stands for "Electrical and Mechanical" and covered a number of activities carried out by the Royal Engineers, or by the three corps of Sappers and Miners of the Indian Army.

 

Ron

[abowell97]

On 19/07/2020 at 10:23, Ron Clifton said:

I strongly suspect that it is his service in Mesopotamia which qualified him for the BWM and VM. He probably came under the category of those "subject to the Army Act as an officer" whilst there, even if he wasn't given a temporary commission at the time.

Thanks for the comment. You're probably right, I can't think of any other reason (as far as I know) that he'd be entitled to military medals, even if the main war was over by the time he was in Mesopotamia. 

[TullochArd]

"Why was a relative awarded these medals" .......... I would say because he was entitled to them within the qualification criteria.

 

I agree with Old Owl that his service in Mesopotamia with the railways likely triggered his entitlement even though he was to all intents and purposes working in a civilian capacity.  The answer lies within the interpretation of the changing complicated criteria for these medals in relation to civilians. We have seen the India link complicates matters however we do know that: 

 

BWM was awarded to "d. Members of duly recognised or authorized organizations" .......in this case civilians employed by Army Department, Government of India. 

 

BVM Entitlement required service from a very complex list of areas.  In his case Asiatic Theatre (6) which includes Mesopotamia and as such "MO 37/1923 – 27/1/23 The following amendment to Army Order 266, dated 16th July, 1919, promulgated by Army Order 392 of 1922, is republished for information:- In lines three and four of paragraph 2 of Army Order 266 of 1919:- For ‘either entered a theatre of war on duty or” substitute “entered on duty theatres of war, during periods and within spheres as defined in Army Order 391 of 1922 or”. Army Order 391 of 1922 is re-published in Military Order 36/23. Military Order 503 of 1919 is amended accordingly. Notes: MO 36/1923 defines the theatres of war for the Victory Medal and includes the Russian Theatre for the British War Medal. It is shown with the Victory Medal (Appendix A to MO 560/1919)"

 

.........and MO 36/1923 includes Mesopotamia.

 

.........I've got a hunch that the "Regr No 10814/W" might refer to the registration of the postal packet rather than some sort of regimental number..

 

 

Edited 22 July , 2020 by TullochArd

[abowell97]

On 22/07/2020 at 15:44, TullochArd said:

I agree with Old Owl that his service in Mesopotamia with the railways likely triggered his entitlement even though he was to all intents and purposes working in a civilian capacity.  The answer lies within the interpretation of the changing complicated criteria for these medals in relation to civilians.

Thanks for the comment, it certainly clarifies a few things.

 

Even though the criteria for medals changes after the war, the concept of doing civilian contractor work for the Royal Engineers in Mesopotamia after war and consequently earning two wartime-era medals is an odd one - even if perfectly plausible. 

 

[TullochArd]

....... unless there is, yet to be found, evidence of a missing qualifying period.  The Government of India clearly were content with the award.  Keep rooting around !

[headgardener]

2 hours ago, abowell97 said:

Thanks for the comment, it certainly clarifies a few things.

 

Even though the criteria for medals changes after the war, the concept of doing civilian contractor work for the Royal Engineers in Mesopotamia after war and consequently earning two wartime-era medals is an odd one - even if perfectly plausible. 

 

 

Maybe I missed something earlier in the thread, but I thought that you found a gap in his movements and/or whereabouts between March 1917 and early 1920, so the qualifying period for his medals would most likely have been sometime between March '17 and Nov '18. A civilian only had to be employed under the command of the military (or in a manner approved by the military) in a war zone in order to qualify for campaign medals (think of the NAAFI or merchant seamen for example). It was the case in pretty much every modern conflict - WW1, WW2, the Falklands, Gulf War 1 & 2..... 

[abowell97]

On 25/07/2020 at 10:35, headgardener said:

Maybe I missed something earlier in the thread, but I thought that you found a gap in his movements and/or whereabouts between March 1917 and early 1920, so the qualifying period for his medals would most likely have been sometime between March '17 and Nov '18. A civilian only had to be employed under the command of the military (or in a manner approved by the military) in a war zone in order to qualify for campaign medals (think of the NAAFI or merchant seamen for example). It was the case in pretty much every modern conflict - WW1, WW2, the Falklands, Gulf War 1 & 2..... 

Yeah, late-1917 to mid-1918 would likely be the specific period in which he earned the medals, though what work he was doing will likely remain unknown, as since he almost certainly wasn't serving in a military capacity, his civilian jobs wouldn't have been recorded to the same degree. It's only through physical records that I know what he did after the war...

This has certainly cleared up a bit of confusion though, thanks!