Missing Medal Index Cards ?

[bigronhartley]

Hello, I am researching 2140 Pte A GREENWOOD 7 Bn West Riding Regiment. He is listed on Forces War Records as wounded (List Dated 6.8.1915) and also on FindMyPast Medical Reports. However, I have been unable to locate a MIC or Medal Roll for the number 2140. Is it common to be unable to find these records ? Were many MICs lost ? I wondered if anyone might have a solution to resolve the problem ? Many thanks

Regards

Ron

Edited 17 July , 2020 by bigronhartley

[ss002d6252]

6 minutes ago, bigronhartley said:

Hello, I am researching 2140 Pte A GREENWOOD 7 Bn West Riding Regiment. He is listed on Forces War Records as wounded (List Dated 6.8.1915) and also on FindMyPast Medical Reports. However, I have been unable to locate a MIC or Medal Roll for the number 2140. Is it common to be unable to any record ? Were many MICs lost ? I wondered if anyone might have a solution to resolve the problem ? Many thanks

Regards

Ron

What was his full first name ?

Craig

[RussT]

Bit of a mystery this one (so far !!)

 

Can't see a MIC for him - nor an entry in the medal roll (only looked at the WRR roll).

 

The closest I got was a certain S Greenwood 2410 WRR (later 200649) - but that is wrong number, wrong initial and wrong Battalion (S Greenwood was 4th Bn). So even though those medical records are prone to errors, perhaps this is too many discrepancies in one go.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[headgardener]

It is very common for names and numbers to be mis-transcribed in various sources (unofficial and official - including the MIC’s), so the fact that you can’t find that particular combination of surname and regimental number in the MIC’s and medal rolls makes me suspect that’s the likeliest explanation.

[sadbrewer]

There's a candidate here in a list of 7th Battalion wounded published on 23rd of August 1915 in the Sheffield Independent. 

Courtesy of the British Newspaper Archive 

 

[TEW]

I followed the same searches FMP MH106 for a lot of men. I ended up with a extra spreadsheet for those I could not be 100% sure of a MIC cross-ref for.

 

These were usually due to a combination of errors such as a number transposed AND a surname spelling or initial.

 

I had some men with a reported number that had no other record showing that number IE. the MH106 number does not appear on MIC or roll.

 

In this case there is a transposed number and a dodgy initial which does not sound that odd to me.

 

7th or 4th battalion? This does not sound unusual either. Medal rolls do not always list all battalions. Not sure what record says 4th? based on his later number?

 

Again, I've seen plenty of wrong battalions in MH106, regiments and divisions as well.

 

Does the MH106 not give a battalion?

TEW

[DavidOwen]

Interesting that there is a Private Edgar Varley, 2140, 203148 West Riding Regiment followed by York and Lancaster Regiment with a MIC. FMP link Ancestry link

 

One wonders if Greenwood might have been an early alias?

 

 

[petwes]

There's a Greenwood, Ashworth in the 1/7 Battalion; regimental number 305608.  This would probably be in the correct block for 1917 re-numbering.

Peter

[sadbrewer]

This may be interesting.

From Findmypast 

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2447254

 

 

[ss002d6252]

43 minutes ago, petwes said:

There's a Greenwood, Ashworth in the 1/7 Battalion; regimental number 305608.  This would probably be in the correct block for 1917 re-numbering.

Peter

That's exactly why I was asking for the first name, same thought as you Peter.

Craig

[DavidOwen]

He did however have a previous number of 205607?

[bigronhartley]

Hello

Thankyou all  very much for your help, it is much appreciated. Unfortunately I don't know his Christian Name ! He obviously went to France in 1915, so entitled to a 1914-15 Star. Ashworth Greenwood doesn't appear to be entitled to a 1914-15 Star . He  is briefly mentioned in the Oldham Chronicle, soldiers returned from France serving at Springhead Drill Hall, so possibly from Oldham ? 

Regards

Ron

[petwes]

Ashworth has a star, the MIC is amended to show this as well as a correction to his regimental number. The star medal roll for West Riding gives his number as 205608 with the 8 crossed out and changed to 7 (the MIC show this corrected to 305608).  I would have expected a 4 digit number for a member of the TF in the medal roll for the 14/15 Star. It looks like there was a degree of confusion over his eligibility and what his new number was. There are a lot of Greenwoods in the regiment.

Peter

Edited 17 July , 2020 by petwes

[ss002d6252]

Looking at the MH106 records themselves it tells us,
 

7th West Riding
Aged 22
4 month field service
Hospitalised 30 July 1915
He was with A company

We know that 7th Bn was formed at Milnsbridge, Huddersfield
https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/duke-of-wellingtons-west-riding-regiment/

 

Craig

[sadbrewer]

There were two Savile Greenwood's,  one in the 4th, one in the 7th, both from Halifax.

[TEW]

4th & 7th have the same history according to LLT. Arriving in France same date I assume, same date as 2410, 200649 Saville Greenwood's MIC shows.

This nearly makes the 4 month field service shown in MH106.

 

He could have arrived with 7th, wounded with 7th then posted to 4th on recovery to be re-numbered with 4th in 1917?

TEW

[ss002d6252]

14 minutes ago, TEW said:

4th & 7th have the same history according to LLT. Arriving in France same date I assume, same date as 2410, 200649 Saville Greenwood's MIC shows.

This nearly makes the 4 month field service shown in MH106.

 

He could have arrived with 7th, wounded with 7th then posted to 4th on recovery to be re-numbered with 4th in 1917?

TEW

Has anyone checked Saville's age ?

 

Craig

[TEW]

Restricting to exact searches I see;

1 x Saville born 1876, Halifax.

4 x Savile all born Halifax, 1896, 1897 and 2 x 1914.

 

The MIC has Saville.

 

1911 census shows 3 x Savile in Halifax born 1875, 1897 & 1898.

 

Think I'd discount the 1876 and go for either 1896 or 1897, both 3rd quarter.

TEW

[sadbrewer]

45 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

Has anyone checked Saville's age ?

 

Craig

 

One was born 1896, the other 1897.

Edit the 1897 Savile that TEW refers to above is Savile Brinton Greenwood.

Edited 17 July , 2020 by sadbrewer

[sadbrewer]

This may be interesting...for one of the Savile's at least...from March 1979.

 

 

Edited 17 July , 2020 by sadbrewer

[ss002d6252]

44 minutes ago, TEW said:

Restricting to exact searches I see;

1 x Saville born 1876, Halifax.

4 x Savile all born Halifax, 1896, 1897 and 2 x 1914.

 

The MIC has Saville.

 

1911 census shows 3 x Savile in Halifax born 1875, 1897 & 1898.

 

Think I'd discount the 1876 and go for either 1896 or 1897, both 3rd quarter.

TEW

 

44 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

 

One was born 1896, the other 1897.

Edit the 1897 Savile that TEW refers to above is Savile Brinton Greenwood.

The age on the MH106 entry from 1915 was age 22 (so abt 1893). We'd have to also say the age was an error (deliberately or accidentally) along with his initial.

 

Craig

[RussT]

Some useful progress since my first post.

 

I conclude that he is 305608 Ashworth Greenwood as mentioned above.

 

As noted, there is clearly some confusion with this MIC and his 1914-1915 medal roll - he should not be identified with a 6-digit TF number on that roll and there was evidently some confusion even with the 6 digit number.

 

One might then ask - where does he appear in the VM/BWM roll with 305608? The answer lies that he is hiding away with yet another WRR number of 60082 - see image below. There is no MIC for a man with that number although there are for numbers either side, 60081, 60083 etc.

 

The clincher for me is in re-constructing the re-numbering for the 7th Bn. As we know it was quite common for men to be 6-digit re-numbered in 4-digit numerical sequence but we recognise that not all 4 digit numbers became 6-digit ones because a man might have, for example, been discharged, transferred or died before the re-numbering occurred.

 

Looking at a sample of records reveals this:

 

2022 became 305555

2124 became 305601

2134 became 305606

2139 became 305607

2168 became 305619

 

So I conclude that 2140 became 305608 i.e. Ashworth Greenwood

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

 

 

 

[petwes]

Russ

thanks for succinctly expressing what I suspected.

I wasn't able to find the neat relationship between the 4 digit 7th battalion numbers and the 1917 6 digit ones. For example 1305 becomes 305232 and 2247 becomes 305648. However, I cannot easily find examples of the 4th battalion renumbering in either  the medal rolls, MICs or SWB's. (Often old and new numbers appear together but the old numbers in this case seem to be expunged from the records)

I have a vague idea that after his wounding perhaps he transferred to 4th battalion and kept his 7th battalion number which was then converted to  the six digit 4th battalion series in the 200001 to 240000 range, hence 205608/7. At some point someone realised he should have been renumbered in the 7 battalion series of numbers or maybe when perhaps he might have transferred again from 4 to 7. This resulted in his 305000's series number.

 

Peter

 

Edited 17 July , 2020 by petwes

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Some possible dates of birth for some of the Savile Greenwoods appear on their death certificates:

 

Deaths Dec 1968   (>99%)
GREENWOOD	SAVILE	71	HALIFAX	2B	592

 

Surname	First name(s)	DoB	District	Vol	Page
Deaths Mar 1975   (>99%)
Greenwood	Savile	1OC1914	Halifax	4	1189
Greenwood	Saville Brinton	24JY1895	Garstang	40	1623
Deaths Mar 1979   (>99%)
GREENWOOD	SAVILE	22AU1896	HALIFAX	4	999

Edited 17 July , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[bigronhartley]

Thanks to Craig, Russ, headgardner, TEW, sadbrewer, DavidOwen, Peter and Dai Bach y Soldiwr for your valuable contributions in helping me solve this mystery. It is indeed Ashworth Greenwood. I managed to find a newspaper report in the Halifax Courier which confirms this. Thanks again for all your hard work.

Regards

Ron