Identifying WW1 regiments of two un-named soldiers

[Rod Amy]

Two family photos attached, with close ups of badges. we are interested particularly in identifying the man on the left of the group and the regiments involved. At least one may be Royal Artillery? Is the sleeve badge a rangefinder proficiency badge? Two men have wound stripes. Any information welcomed! Thank you. 

[EDWARD1]

The 1st cap badge is the Royal Artillery, the second North  Staffordshire, Prince of Wales`s feathers not a crown( as headgardener below)

Edited 17 July , 2020 by EDWARD1

[sadbrewer]

As you say, R cloth patch, suggests range taker proficiency in the Royal Artillery.

Edited 17 July , 2020 by sadbrewer

[headgardener]

RA cap badge, and North Staffs cap badge. RFA, RHA, RGA & HAC (Artillery) wore the same cap badge.

[FROGSMILE]

Two boy soldiers kneeling at centre and a regimental cook in whites.  The scene looks like it might have been outside a mess tent.  Notice the buckets, bowl and typically excavated work space at left.  Both Sergeants have two wound stripes and the old-soldier at right has 4-good conduct badges (stripes) marking 16-18 years of blemish free service.  I think that the R badge is the brass version rather than cloth.

 

 

 

Edited 3 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[squirrel]

The Serjeant seated right appears to have a medal ribbon, MM perhaps?

[headgardener]

I’d say there are 2 medal ribbons, the 2nd looks to me like it *may* be a KSA.

[TullochArd]

The first photo.  Mounted soldier - jodhpurs/puttees tied at the ankle.  He has shoulder titles but I can't make them out. 

 

The second photo. I'm forever impressed by the likes of the Sergeant on the left (with 2 x wounded badges) who wind their puttees in such a complex fashion and also manage to keep their boots in such pristine condition.  Fellow in the centre is wearing an emergency pattern jacket. I reckon one ribbon worn by the Sergeant on the right (with 1 x Wounded badge) but at a loss what it is .... the dark/light/mid range colour sequence don't seem to fit the QSA and it's certainly not the "tricolour" style KSA.

[headgardener]

7 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

.... the dark/light/mid range colour sequence don't seem to fit the QSA and it's certainly not the "tricolour" style KSA.

 

Stupid me.... I typed KSA but meant QSA. I think it does look like it could be a QSA, the sequence of tones can look different on ortho film, but looking at it again you may be right. 

Definitely NOT a KSA though! 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

48 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

He has shoulder titles but I can't make them out. 

I think the last letter is an 'A' which is perhaps not a big surprise.

A higher res scan would confirm if the second letter is 'G' , 'F' or 'H'

[Rod Amy]

Re this query about Jersey/Guernsey WW1 soldiers - Many thanks to all: your replies have been very helpful. Can't increase res of photos I'm afraid. 

Best wishes from Sunny Jersey!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Rod Amy said:

Re this query about Jersey/Guernsey WW1 soldiers - Many thanks to all: your replies have been very helpful. Can't increase res of photos I'm afraid. 

Best wishes from Sunny Jersey!

The 4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion of the North Staffordshire Regiment were on Guernsey (Fort George) and conducting training between August 1914 and September 1916.

 

As an interesting aside, only the Irish regiments as a whole, plus a few English and Scots regiments had ‘Extra Reserve’ (ER) battalions.  

Of the English portion, both the North and South Staffordshire Regiments had such battalions and were among just a tiny minority of regiments to deploy their ER battalions to join the field army in France in 1917.  
 

Edited 18 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Rod Amy]

Thanks yet again!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Rod Amy said:

Thanks yet again!

Something that I hadn’t realised until now is that upon the outbreak of war the two Staffordshire Regiments (North and South)  Extra Reserve Battalions (remember there were few of these) had unique, predetermined mobilisation roles to deploy to and defend the Channel Islands.  The North Staffs, Guernsey, and the South Staffs, Jersey.  This the two battalions duly did swiftly and efficiently.  It was the attrition rates suffered by the infantry as a whole in 1916-1917, combined with the assessment that an assault on the Channel Islands was unlikely, that led to the deployment of both battalions to France.  It’s significant to note that prior to 1908, both of the ER battalions had been auxiliary forces units of Staffs Militia.

Edited 18 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

I've just come across this forum while looking for information on my uncle John Garnet James Wren who apparently served in Guernsey in 1917

My cousin has her mother's birth certificate stating she was born in Guernsey and her father's profession as Company Sergeant Major in the North Staffordshire Regiment.

 

My query is was it normal for family to accompany serving personnel and what might have been Uncle Garnet's role?  

 

Thanks in anticipation of any help.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Mr Kiffer said:

I've just come across this forum while looking for information on my uncle John Garnet James Wren who apparently served in Guernsey in 1917

My cousin has her mother's birth certificate stating she was born in Guernsey and her father's profession as Company Sergeant Major in the North Staffordshire Regiment.

 

My query is was it normal for family to accompany serving personnel and what might have been Uncle Garnet's role?  

 

Thanks in anticipation of any help.

It was a privilege of regular British infantry on garrison duty at home to be accompanied by their families.  Prior to the war there was one infantry battalion each on Guernsey and Jersey.  As mentioned above the war mobilisation plan involved the Extra Reserve (ER) battalions of the two Staffordshire regiments relieving the regular units in place to release them to deploy with the British Expeditionary Force to France and Flanders.  They also took over the married quarters and were permitted to have their families with them given that they were one-for-one replacement units.  It was a privilege of their special role as ER taking the place of regular units within Britain.
 

As a company sergeant major (CSM) your forebear was one of four in the same role for the companies lettered A to D (usually, but there were variations) 

CSMs were the link between the company commanders and the men and responsible for their discipline and good order.  He was also involved in organising the duties of his men (barracks guard and fatigues) in accordance with the battalion standing orders (SO) and his company’s decreed turn on duty. In general it was his job to set the tone for his company and ensure that the daily orders issued by the company’s commander were followed to the letter.

 

NB.  Not every married soldier was permitted to have his wife accompany him.  The usual proportion in Britain and Ireland was up to 10 wives per company.  Married men had to apply and places were usually allocated to senior NCOs as a privilege of their rank plus a few more junior men with unblemished disciplinary records.  This was seen as fair in an organisation run on the basis of a clearly delineated hierarchy and a system reliant on good order and military discipline.  There were very few quarters for officers apart from key appointments such as the commanding officer and quartermaster of the battalion and other married officers were expected to rent their accommodation locally under private arrangements.

Edited 10 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Guest]

Many thanks for the detailed information, it is much appreciated and gives an insight into my uncle's life in the military. 

 

As you advise, "other married officers were expected to rent their accommodation locally under private arrangements." Again according to the birth certificate, the family appeared to be living in private (rented?) accommodation in Colborne Road, St Peter Port (a nice part of town according to my Guernsey connections!)

 

Once again, many thanks.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Mr Kiffer said:

Many thanks for the detailed information, it is much appreciated and gives an insight into my uncle's life in the military. 

 

As you advise, "other married officers were expected to rent their accommodation locally under private arrangements." Again according to the birth certificate, the family appeared to be living in private (rented?) accommodation in Colborne Road, St Peter Port (a nice part of town according to my Guernsey connections!)

 

Once again, many thanks.

If the accommodation was rented (which is entirely normal when out of barracks during that period) then it suggests that either, he was not one of those with a wife and family officially ‘on the strength’ (i.e. officially designated as one of the 10 per company), and thus moved his family there privately, or it simply reflects a limited number of available married quarters, as they were in much shorter supply than became the norm in between the wars and subsequently.  I’m also unclear what happened to the pre-war military families who had been there, although I suspect many went back closer to their origins where they could get family support.  It’s not a subject that’s been studied, and from a point of view of social history would make an interesting thesis.

 

NB.  Being designated on the strength was important because it entitled the wife and children to state funded protection.  This included free accommodation (often at that time in converted barrack blocks), education in the unit school, healthcare in the local military hospital, and an allocation of unit rations (half for a wife and one quarter for a child), plus similar for fuel (coal) and light (oil if no electricity). 

Edited 11 June , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[1RGLI]

Just taking this a step further, the 3rd GB North Staffordshire Regt, sent ment to via Alderney to Guernsey to the 2/Royal Guernsey Light Infantry, they mostly went to the 2nd (Reserve/Home) R.G.L.I. where they were trained and were with reserve re-enforcements were sent to the 1st Service Battalion Royal Guernsey L.I. , where they lost some of the former 3 (GB) North Staffordshire mostly in the Spring of 1918 counter attack at the battle of the LYS, they would have re-badged to the RGLI.

 

Mark.

[FROGSMILE]

48 minutes ago, 1RGLI said:

Just taking this a step further, the 3rd GB North Staffordshire Regt, sent ment to via Alderney to Guernsey to the 2/Royal Guernsey Light Infantry, they mostly went to the 2nd (Reserve/Home) R.G.L.I. where they were trained and were with reserve re-enforcements were sent to the 1st Service Battalion Royal Guernsey L.I. , where they lost some of the former 3 (GB) North Staffordshire mostly in the Spring of 1918 counter attack at the battle of the LYS, they would have re-badged to the RGLI.

 

Mark.

That’s a really interesting and very little known detail about the front line service of the Channel Islands militia battalions, and their association with Staffordshire, during WW1.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 3 January , 2022 by FROGSMILE