Pte Briggs Hindle No 242939 Suffolk Regt.

[Sav]

In trying to trace a distant Hindle relative I downloaded his MIC from the UK National Archive. Can someone interpret it for me please.

Regards

Sav

[sotonmate]

4th and 5th Reserve Battalions raised in Ipswich and Bury St Edmunds. 5th absorbed into 4th in April 1916. No overseas service for these units, they merely supplied other Suffolk units with replacements as required. Briggs had no overseas service so he had no entitlement to campaign medals.

He enlisted on 11 Dec 1915 and was discharged to Class P Reserve as unfit, with a Silver War Badge (Number 209249), on 12 May 1917.

[travers61]

MIC mentions a pension, & Silver War Badge record says "Pension granted of 8s and 3d per week for 26 weeks condtl." (conditional of what I don't know)

[travers61]

His service record survives and is here on ancestry:

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=iGD20&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&dbid=1114&gsfn=briggs&gsln=hindle&cp=0&new=1&rank=1&uidh=5eb&redir=false&msT=1&gss=angs-d&pcat=39&fh=0&h=489145&recoff=&ml_rpos=1&queryId=05cbf121796f81654b71830f6aeaf9c8

 

There are four pages but link takes you to page 2 (a little quirk on ancestry).

 

 

[Sav]

Many Thanks Travers61

Regards

Ken

[PRC]

Looks like Class P T Reserve

 

LLT has:-

 

Class T Reserve

Introduced in October 1916 by Army Order 355 of 1916. There was no Territorial equivalent. Class T consisted of men in about 30 specific skilled trades (almost all industrial/munitions related) who would otherwise have been transferred to Class W. Terms and conditions were as for Class W.

 

Class P Reserve and Class P(T)

Introduced by the same Army Order 355/16. These classes consisted of men
– ‘whose services are deemed to be temporarily of more value to the country in civil life rather than in the Army’
– and who were not lower than medical grade C iii
– and as a result of having served in the Army or TF would, if discharged, be eligible for a pension on the grounds of disability or length of service.

Men in Classes P and P(T) were, for the purposes of pay, allowances, gratuity and pension, treated as if they been discharged on the date of their transfer to Class P or P(T); that is. they did receive money from the Army. Other terms and conditions were as for Class W.

Authorisation was given in early December 1918 for all classes of the P and W Reserves (with the exception of conscientious objectors in the latter case) to be discharged forthwith, irrespective of their original terms of engagement.

 

And for completeness

Class W Reserve and its Territorial Force equivalent Class W(T)

Introduced in June 1916 by Army Order 203/16 under Section 12 of the recent Military Service Act. This new class of reserve was ‘for all those soldiers whose services are deemed to be more valuable to the country in civil rather than military employment’. Men in these classes were to receive no emoluments from army funds and were not to wear uniform. They were liable at any time to be recalled to the colours. From the time a man was transferred to Class W, until being recalled to the Colours, he was not subject to military discipline.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/british-army-reserves-and-reservists/

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, travers61 said:

MIC mentions a pension, & Silver War Badge record says "Pension granted of 8s and 3d per week for 26 weeks condtl." (conditional of what I don't know)

Sav

As has been mentioned before - a MIC is a bit of a misnomer as no medals involved - card sometimes described as a 'Discharge Card' or a 'SWB card' too and commonly seems found alongside MIC with medals.

Can't disagree with the other previous posts but thought I could shed a bit of light and add on the matter of pension

Unfortunately WFA/Fold3 seems to be playing up for me today so haven't been able to do a full search of the recently released Pension Cards [cards and ledger indices] - so I can't today [but think I may have found a possible hit] - and tomorrow is another day!  Have had another look and even the possible hit seems to have evaporated into nothing more

Meantime I believe the "conditional" term means his pension was conditional / a rather temporary affair until it had been more formally sorted out / finalised/final - either as one that was finally terminated or made finally permanent - all pensions started out as 'conditional' - almost certainly because because the condition(s) was being evaluated prior to pension being finalised and/or conditions might be being placed on it meantime.

Not exactly sure what the possibilities might have been or why that particular term was chosen/used - but the MoP had to have something 'snappy' to use on their paperwork I guess.

Has anyone any idea on what grounds/what condition(s) was to be paid?

I don't yet know if this man's pension entitlement was ever made final [one would presume it was] or more especially if it was made permanent.

If you can see his SR [I can't at present] then that might perhaps a bit clearer - if the quote above came from his SR, as it seems,  it is quite possible that it was only for the 26 weeks mentioned.

Ledger index cards [particularly commonly for disability] quite often show the point of change from Conditional to Final - if you can find a ledger that is.

Sadly very, very few of the complete files have survived vigorous destruction over the years - have had another quick look in the usual place to find full[er] files but struggled there too - may be the time of day for server updates etc. ??  Have had another look couldn't find his name there - but would have been very surprised if I did as such a small number of records were saved

Others may be able to earlier help more with pension = but I'll have another look tomorrow.

Sorry, I seem to have ground to a halt for now.

:-) M

Edited 15 July , 2020 by Matlock1418
addit./clarify

[AMC11]

Hi,

I have a Briggs Hindle in my family tree, uncommon name, I wonder if it is the same person. Living in Lancashire in 1911

[Matlock1418]

On 15/07/2020 at 01:30, Matlock1418 said:

Others may be able to earlier help more with pension = but I'll have another look tomorrow.

Sorry, I seem to have ground to a halt for now

Finally picked up again ... and this is a disability pension card [disability is unspecified]

Briggs HINDLE, 242939, 2/5th Suffolk Regt [also, earlier, Manchester Regiment 6578]

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

8/3 pw from 13.5.17 was the 30% rate for a pension Class V / Private 

1 boy at 1/6 pw from 14.5.17 to 13.11.17 was for a child prorata at the same 30% disability rate [5/- pw x 30% = 1/6 pw]

There's your 26 weeks/6 months "conditional" 13-5-17 to 13-11-17.  I can't find any follow-on pension.

57 minutes ago, AMC11 said:

I have a Briggs Hindle in my family tree, uncommon name, I wonder if it is the same person. Living in Lancashire in 1911

Hi, Welcome to WFA

Lancashire was a pretty big county in 1911 but Manchester was in there - not that a man would nececesarily start/end up in a regiment local to his residence

I wonder what that MR no. tells us?  [Based on an enlistment in 11-12-15 I'm currently thinking not a long-termTerritorial] Hopefully other members will enlighten us - either directly from a service record [?] or by looking at those for similar adjacent near-numbers.

If you have more details why not post here and see where it might lead. ??

M

 

Edited 12 February , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[AMC11]

The Briggs Hindle related to me was living in Baxenden in Lancashire according to the 1911 census

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, AMC11 said:

The Briggs Hindle related to me was living in Baxenden in Lancashire according to the 1911 census

OK so about 20 miles north of the city of Manchester but not impossible to join such a regiment.

If you can offer a few more details [I cannot see the Census/Censuses] then it is likely to assist you / other members to help you.

The pension card seems to indicate he was old enough to seemingly be a father to a boy alive in 1917, but that can offer a pretty wide scope for the OP's man's age.

And as for any name or age for a son [or wider family] known?

M

Edited 12 February , 2023 by Matlock1418

[AMC11]

He had a boy born in 1907, a Thomas Briggs Hindle but I don't have much more info sorry

[Matlock1418]

Thanks.

It is interesting to note that in the then used Royal Warrant there was no provison for a disability pension allowance for a wife in 1917, just for a child(ren).  [That wife's extra came from 1918].

M

 

Edited 12 February , 2023 by Matlock1418

[AMC11]

So would Briggs Hindle of been given a disability pension for being injured/wounded while in service?

[Matlock1418]

27 minutes ago, AMC11 said:

So would Briggs Hindle of been given a disability pension for being injured/wounded while in service?

A disability pension would have been awarded provided the condition had been agreed as "attributed to" or "aggravated by" military service [so it need not have been necessarily 'caused' by service, either at home or abroad] - there must have been some disablement still present at date of discharge.

Not necessarily for an injury [though accidental injuries could qualify too] or a wound but could easlily have been for disease/sickness. 

His Silver War Badge list [as shown on the OP's MIC] will likely show for what - commonly recorded as Wound(s) or Sickness = Worth looking out for.

Previously unperceived conditions could easily come to the fore - probably saved quite a few men their life.

Whatever the cause of his discharge & pension the lack of a continuing pension record rather suggests he got somewhat better - beyond a pension anyway [less than 6-14% disability]. 

The fact that there is no record of continuation or final gratuity final pay-off at the moment to me rather suggest he stopped claiming/they just stopped paying after 26 weeks/6 months.

M

[PRC]

56 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

His Silver War Badge list [as shown on the OP's MIC] will likely show for what - commonly recorded as Wound(s) or Sickness = Worth looking out for.

Silver War Badge Roll just gives grounds for award as being Transferred to Class P Reserve, Territorial Reserve, one of the conditions for which is that he would otherwise have qualified for a pension on grounds of disability or length of service. (I've quoted the full requirement for Class P, taken straight from the Long, Long Trail, earlier in the thread).

As he appears very likely to be a Derby Scheme man, he may not even have been called up until 1917 so the dates on the SWB could be a tad misleading.

The fact that he was discharged from a Territorial Force Battalion of the Suffolk Regiment makes it very likely he was transferred in from a home service only Territorial Force Battalion of the Manchester Regiment. A four digit service for a man who signed up in December 1915 tends to support that. It would probably have had a prefix to indicate  which Battalion, but as usual that is unhelpfully not recorded.

I suspect he had not long been with the Suffolks prior to discharge - that six digit number looks too high to have been used in the renumbering at the start of 1917, so was probably part of a block that was being used up for later transfers and conscripts. The only one I could find anywhere near it on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website was only aged 19 when he died in the summer of 1918, and Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as formerly City of London Regiment. However as the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment) didn't have any TF Battalions, I suspect he was actually from the all TF London Regiment. A bit of near number searching may turn up surviving service records that will enable some dates to be established and possibly even identify a path by which he ended up with the Suffolk Regiment.

Cheers,
Peter

[AMC11]

Thank you so much for the info PRC and Matlock1418.

Being transferred in from the Manchester regiment would make sense.